We’re wired for play - So do it!

Tzuki Stewart: 00:00:02

Hello.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:00:02

Welcome to the show.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:00:04

I'm Zuki Stewart from playfield, a startup helping organizations to enable

Tzuki Stewart: 00:00:09

everyone to rediscover their creativity through playful wonder and serendipity.

Lucy Taylor: 00:00:14

And I'm Lucy Taylor from Make Work, play an organization on

Lucy Taylor: 00:00:18

a mission to use the power of play to unlock potential and possibility.

Lucy Taylor: 00:00:23

Together we are.

Lucy Taylor: 00:00:24

Why Playworks?

Lucy Taylor: 00:00:25

The podcast that speaks to people radically reshaping work as play.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:00:31

In this episode, I'll be speaking to Gary Ware.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:00:34

The founder of Breakthrough Play, Gary is a corporate facilitator, keynote speaker,

Tzuki Stewart: 00:00:39

certified coach, and author of the book, playful Rebellion, maximize Workplace

Tzuki Stewart: 00:00:44

Success through the Power of Play.

Lucy Taylor: 00:00:48

Gary has over 14 years experience in the corporate world

Lucy Taylor: 00:00:51

holding various leadership positions and being a multifaceted individual.

Lucy Taylor: 00:00:56

He also comes with nearly a decade of experience as a

Lucy Taylor: 00:00:59

performer in improv theater.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:01:02

After experiencing burnout in his pursuit for success

Tzuki Stewart: 00:01:05

and happiness, he realized that what was missing was spoiler play.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:01:10

Committing to a life of play is what led Gary to discover

Tzuki Stewart: 00:01:13

his passion for facilitating.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:01:15

Gary uses the power of applied improvisation and other playful methods

Tzuki Stewart: 00:01:20

to assist people in unlocking creativity, confidence, and better communi.

Lucy Taylor: 00:01:26

Gary was recently featured as one of the top hundred

Lucy Taylor: 00:01:29

HR influencers of 2021 by the engaged Lee HR software platform.

Lucy Taylor: 00:01:35

When he isn't leading workshops or speaking, you can find him learning

Lucy Taylor: 00:01:38

magic or often an adventure with his wife Courtney and his sons Garrett and Cameron.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:01:44

In this episode, we discuss leaning into your inner joker, the power

Tzuki Stewart: 00:01:48

of experience over words and how adding a little bit of play makes anything.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:01:59

Oh, I'm so excited this is happening at last.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:02:02

It's been a long time coming this conversation, so thank

Tzuki Stewart: 00:02:04

you so much for bearing with me and for giving me some time.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:02:07

My afternoon, your morning Trans-Atlantic.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:02:10

So it's great to have you

Gary Ware: 00:02:12

here.

Gary Ware: 00:02:13

Thank you so much for having me.

Gary Ware: 00:02:14

I, I am so excited to dive deep.

Gary Ware: 00:02:16

It's gonna be a lot of fun.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:02:19

So let's kick off.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:02:20

What does the word play mean to.

Gary Ware: 00:02:25

Wow.

Gary Ware: 00:02:26

Wow.

Gary Ware: 00:02:26

All right.

Gary Ware: 00:02:27

We're, we're starting with the, the big ones.

Gary Ware: 00:02:29

Uh, play has multiple meetings to me.

Gary Ware: 00:02:32

Uh, you know, the overarching meeting is to do something, um, for the sake of

Gary Ware: 00:02:39

and to, to dive whatever that activity is and be immersed in the process.

Gary Ware: 00:02:44

Um, You know, at the end of the day, enjoy you're So that, that's what

Gary Ware: 00:02:51

play means to me, um, as umbrella

Tzuki Stewart: 00:02:55

the, just doing it for the sake of it.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:02:57

And do you find that easy with practice?

Tzuki Stewart: 00:03:00

Because I think that's, that's difficult to do for a lot of people.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:03:02

Do you find it easier the more engaged you are in this

Gary Ware: 00:03:05

playfulness?

Gary Ware: 00:03:06

Well, see, this is the thing.

Gary Ware: 00:03:07

We are wired for play.

Gary Ware: 00:03:09

So like when, when the conditions are right.

Gary Ware: 00:03:13

We can dive into it.

Gary Ware: 00:03:14

However, getting to that state where we could be playful and, and

Gary Ware: 00:03:19

really get into that, um, into that level of focus can be challenging

Gary Ware: 00:03:23

due to so many different things.

Gary Ware: 00:03:25

You know, just our understanding of play, you know, our society conditioned us, um,

Gary Ware: 00:03:30

as adults to think that play is something.

Gary Ware: 00:03:34

Is frivolous or, or what kids do.

Gary Ware: 00:03:37

Um, and again, you know, depending on the context, we might feel guilty

Gary Ware: 00:03:42

for feeling playful in the moment.

Gary Ware: 00:03:44

Um, you know.

Gary Ware: 00:03:45

Mm-hmm.

Gary Ware: 00:03:45

especially, you know, thinking of work, uh, you know, when we think we

Gary Ware: 00:03:49

have to be so serious and rigid where.

Gary Ware: 00:03:52

a again, if we really understand, like I said, the umbrella term of play,

Gary Ware: 00:03:57

it just means to just do something for the sake of doing it, you know,

Gary Ware: 00:04:00

not worried about the the outcome.

Gary Ware: 00:04:03

And

Tzuki Stewart: 00:04:03

what's your earliest memory of play?

Gary Ware: 00:04:06

If we can go way back?

Gary Ware: 00:04:08

Uh, for me, I do remember.

Gary Ware: 00:04:13

When I was about three or four, um, my dad was in the armed

Gary Ware: 00:04:19

service in the, in the navy, here in the us and we were in Hawaii.

Gary Ware: 00:04:25

And I do remember, you know, uh, exploring.

Gary Ware: 00:04:29

and, you know, just being out and about.

Gary Ware: 00:04:32

Um, I, I was a very, I still am very curious kid, , and, uh, I, I

Gary Ware: 00:04:38

tend to get into a lot of mischief, just being curious about stuff.

Gary Ware: 00:04:42

And so I, I remember having adventures, um, and it's so funny because I

Gary Ware: 00:04:48

was younger than my son is now, and my mom just let me just go out

Gary Ware: 00:04:54

of the house and I'm at this park that is near our house and she.

Gary Ware: 00:04:59

All right, cool.

Gary Ware: 00:05:00

Like it, it's all good.

Gary Ware: 00:05:01

Be home soon, . Yeah,

Tzuki Stewart: 00:05:03

I completely agree.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:05:05

And when you think back to that three, four year old in Hawaii

Tzuki Stewart: 00:05:08

being curious, do you, do you feel that younger self show up today?

Tzuki Stewart: 00:05:13

You said, I'm still a curious kid, right.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:05:15

So do you still feel that connection with the younger self and what play

Tzuki Stewart: 00:05:18

meant to him and how it shows up

Gary Ware: 00:05:20

in you?

Gary Ware: 00:05:21

. Yes, I do.

Gary Ware: 00:05:22

And, and I'm, I'm so glad that you bring this up because like in the

Gary Ware: 00:05:25

work that I do, that is some of the things that can help people really

Gary Ware: 00:05:29

unlock that spirit of plays is think about when you were younger, how

Gary Ware: 00:05:33

did you play, how did you show up?

Gary Ware: 00:05:35

And how can you like unlock that now?

Gary Ware: 00:05:38

And so as I mentioned, I was very curious kid.

Gary Ware: 00:05:41

Uh, I got into a bit of mischief just because I was

Gary Ware: 00:05:44

like, Ooh, what does this do?

Gary Ware: 00:05:46

And then I end up breaking something, or whatever the case may be.

Gary Ware: 00:05:50

You know, I over time learned that, Ooh, maybe that's not a good thing.

Gary Ware: 00:05:54

Um, however, you know, through hours and hours of therapy and,

Gary Ware: 00:05:58

and, and interventions and stuff like that, as an adult, I've learned

Gary Ware: 00:06:01

to realize that, um, those are the things that I need as an adult.

Gary Ware: 00:06:06

I need curiosity.

Gary Ware: 00:06:07

I need imagination.

Gary Ware: 00:06:09

I need exploration.

Gary Ware: 00:06:10

You know, that's what I like to call, uh, being childlike.

Gary Ware: 00:06:13

You know, how can we.

Gary Ware: 00:06:16

, uh, bring these qualities into our day-to-day.

Gary Ware: 00:06:19

And yes, I've, um, uh, Dr.

Gary Ware: 00:06:23

Stewart Brown who wrote the book play, talked about different play personalities.

Gary Ware: 00:06:26

Mm-hmm.

Gary Ware: 00:06:27

and one of the big ones for me is the Joker.

Gary Ware: 00:06:29

Um, I was all about playing practical jokes and, and whatnot,

Gary Ware: 00:06:35

um, and being very jovial.

Gary Ware: 00:06:36

And again, yeah, it did get me into trouble.

Gary Ware: 00:06:39

And so again, as kids, sometimes we make these sort of, Sort of

Gary Ware: 00:06:45

overarching statements of like, Ooh, this is not a good thing.

Gary Ware: 00:06:47

You know, instead of like com compartmentalizing, you

Gary Ware: 00:06:49

know, these situations mm-hmm.

Gary Ware: 00:06:51

And so, yeah.

Gary Ware: 00:06:52

Uh, like as an adult I did find myself like, maybe I shouldn't,

Gary Ware: 00:06:55

you know, I, I should hide that.

Gary Ware: 00:06:57

Uh, but I do find that when I.

Gary Ware: 00:07:00

am allowing myself to express that, uh, I am feeling more whole.

Gary Ware: 00:07:05

Mm-hmm.

Gary Ware: 00:07:05

and, um, you know, more fulfilled.

Gary Ware: 00:07:07

Mm-hmm.

Gary Ware: 00:07:08

, I

Tzuki Stewart: 00:07:08

completely, completely agree.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:07:09

And what you're saying there makes me think of my younger self and

Tzuki Stewart: 00:07:14

kind of how she liked to play.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:07:15

And one of my earlie memories of play is, Um, I lived when I was younger, kind

Tzuki Stewart: 00:07:20

of on a mountainside in Portugal, um, kind of off the grid, no running water.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:07:26

Uh, you know, we had windmills for power, that kind of thing.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:07:29

Very, um, unorthodox.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:07:31

And I also, just to add to that funky mix, I didn't go to school.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:07:34

I was home educated and so I had a lot of time on my hands in the day

Tzuki Stewart: 00:07:38

cause I wasn't in, you know, class back to back as most children were.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:07:41

And one of my earnest memories is, It's not sneaking.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:07:44

Cause I wasn't, not allowed, but kind of going down the

Tzuki Stewart: 00:07:47

track in this, in this mountain.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:07:48

And I had my discman, do you remember Discmans?

Tzuki Stewart: 00:07:51

You know that's what they're called after.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:07:53

After the cassette, the Walkman, you had the Discman and I

Tzuki Stewart: 00:07:55

thought I was just Thies knees.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:07:56

I was like, yo, check out my Walkman.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:07:58

My discman, and get my headphones.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:08:00

And I would take a little selection of CDs down this hill, down this track.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:08:03

No one around like the odd shepherd perhaps like yonder in the distance.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:08:07

And I put on my headphones and I would sing to an to an imaginary.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:08:11

You know, spice Girls, whatever I could have.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:08:13

And I would spend hours just singing to myself and my imaginary

Tzuki Stewart: 00:08:16

audience and making dance routines.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:08:19

And, and I think now, you know, I was never gonna be a singer that

Tzuki Stewart: 00:08:23

I wasn't doing that cause I was practicing something I was good at

Tzuki Stewart: 00:08:25

and I wanted to do when I was older.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:08:26

Right.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:08:26

It wa there was no end to that.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:08:27

I just loved the feeling like in my throat of singing.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:08:30

And then, you know, I grew up and when I was at university I did a bit

Tzuki Stewart: 00:08:33

of kind of dance and theater, but, you know, you, you, you leave that

Tzuki Stewart: 00:08:36

behind, you get a big grown up job and kind of, you don't have time.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:08:40

Just last year, my child after school and they have a staff parent choir, and I was

Tzuki Stewart: 00:08:45

like nose against the window pressed up like, let me in, when are you starting?

Tzuki Stewart: 00:08:49

And I began singing in the choir with other adults and there's something

Tzuki Stewart: 00:08:54

just deep about singing with, with other people, like quite primal.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:09:00

And you know, you sing with strangers, there's lots of people I don't know,

Tzuki Stewart: 00:09:02

and we're getting them notes wrong and we're trying to harmonize and

Tzuki Stewart: 00:09:05

we're, you know, you've gotta get into a rhythm together and you're

Tzuki Stewart: 00:09:08

strangers and there's something.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:09:10

I know primal about it.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:09:12

, you know, the days I, some days I'm, you know, I'm stressed out

Tzuki Stewart: 00:09:16

at work and I think, my gosh, how indulgent am I going with this choir?

Tzuki Stewart: 00:09:19

Like, what am I, you know, I'm not taking, taking care of my kids.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:09:21

I'm not working, as you said, the guilt around why am I indulging myself in this?

Tzuki Stewart: 00:09:25

And I'll go off for an hour there and I'll just come at a different person.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:09:28

That feeling of wholeness and fulfillment you talked about, and it's just like

Tzuki Stewart: 00:09:31

something very deep has been soothed.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:09:34

And it's funny that that's the linkage I feel with.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:09:38

You know, my small six year old child self who loved that too, and I, yeah.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:09:41

I love that linkage.

Gary Ware: 00:09:44

So beautiful.

Gary Ware: 00:09:44

Thank you so much for sharing that story.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:09:47

So back to back to our present day, fully grown

Tzuki Stewart: 00:09:50

up responsible selves, when did you most recently feel playful?

Gary Ware: 00:09:57

Uh, you would think that I would say, oh, when engaging with my kids.

Gary Ware: 00:10:02

Yeah.

Gary Ware: 00:10:02

I, so I have a five year old and a five month old, and, Lately just because

Gary Ware: 00:10:08

of the holidays and stuff like that.

Gary Ware: 00:10:09

And sometimes I feel guilty because, you know, my son wants to play and I'm engaged

Gary Ware: 00:10:13

in play, but I'm, I'm having two hats on.

Gary Ware: 00:10:16

I'm like having a parent hat on and mm-hmm.

Gary Ware: 00:10:18

and I'm trying to be playful and it, it doesn't feel as playful as I would like.

Gary Ware: 00:10:22

And maybe because I'm a practitioner of this, maybe I'm judging myself a bit more.

Gary Ware: 00:10:27

But again, if Judge judgment's in there, You know, it's

Gary Ware: 00:10:30

not as playful as it can be.

Gary Ware: 00:10:32

However, uh, one of the things, um, I discovered over the last 10

Gary Ware: 00:10:37

years is, um, improvisation, you know, theatrical improvisation.

Gary Ware: 00:10:41

And I perform at a theater near my house.

Gary Ware: 00:10:45

Um, and we've had a hiatus because of the holidays.

Gary Ware: 00:10:48

And we had, uh, a performance, um, two weeks ago.

Gary Ware: 00:10:54

And it was, uh, one of those performances where we were.

Gary Ware: 00:10:59

in sync and it was just so much fun.

Gary Ware: 00:11:01

Yeah.

Gary Ware: 00:11:01

And it was like much needed after like, you know, again, a stressful holiday

Gary Ware: 00:11:05

season to just let loose and just Yeah.

Gary Ware: 00:11:08

Be spontaneous.

Gary Ware: 00:11:09

Um, you know, You know, with my fellow improvisers and we left like feeling like,

Gary Ware: 00:11:14

man, that was a, that was a good show.

Gary Ware: 00:11:16

That was, that was awesome.

Gary Ware: 00:11:17

So that was, yeah, one of the last times, like, and it wasn't that long ago.

Gary Ware: 00:11:21

Yeah.

Gary Ware: 00:11:21

Where I felt really playful.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:11:24

I love that idea of being in sync and I guess that's nice.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:11:27

Um, linking to what I wanted to ask you next, which was

Tzuki Stewart: 00:11:30

really about your journey to.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:11:32

Playfulness and especially this idea of playful working, and I think that

Tzuki Stewart: 00:11:35

started with a, with an improv experience.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:11:38

So tell us more about the journey to today.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:11:41

Yeah,

Gary Ware: 00:11:42

so, uh, as I mentioned, you know, growing up I was, you know, that

Gary Ware: 00:11:45

class clowned, um, very curious, um, you know, got into a lot of mischief.

Gary Ware: 00:11:50

Um, and then as I got older, it was one of those things where I would suppress that.

Gary Ware: 00:11:55

I was like, oh, that's not something that adults do.

Gary Ware: 00:11:59

You know, my end goal at just like everyone's end goal was to,

Gary Ware: 00:12:02

to be happy and to be successful.

Gary Ware: 00:12:04

And those things on my list, you know, after, you know, years of like reflection,

Gary Ware: 00:12:09

you know, weren't necessarily things that I put on there, you know, it was

Gary Ware: 00:12:12

things that I thought I needed to do to be happy, to be successful, you

Gary Ware: 00:12:15

know, go to university, you know, get a good job and, and all these things.

Gary Ware: 00:12:19

And I found myself in a career that on paper I should be

Gary Ware: 00:12:23

ecstatic about, you know?

Gary Ware: 00:12:24

Mm-hmm.

Gary Ware: 00:12:25

, it was, you know, I went to school for this and, and I, I'm rising up the ranks.

Gary Ware: 00:12:28

I'm, I'm, you know, by society's terms, I, I'm successful.

Gary Ware: 00:12:32

Yeah.

Gary Ware: 00:12:32

However, I was feeling a bit unfulfilled, you know, burnt out.

Gary Ware: 00:12:36

Quite frequently, and it's really funny that I think about this.

Gary Ware: 00:12:40

Um, the thing that helped me rediscover my play was an

Gary Ware: 00:12:44

improv class, as you mentioned.

Gary Ware: 00:12:46

However, that wasn't my intention on signing up for the class.

Gary Ware: 00:12:49

It wasn't like, Hey, I think this is gonna be fun and, and let me do this is.

Gary Ware: 00:12:53

It was to become a better public speaker.

Gary Ware: 00:12:57

Okay.

Gary Ware: 00:12:57

You know, it was for op, like self optimization

Gary Ware: 00:13:00

I'm glad I took a class.

Gary Ware: 00:13:01

I, I'm, I'm so glad I did because going into that class, um, it was a January

Gary Ware: 00:13:07

and there was, uh, you know, about, you know, 14, 15 people just like myself.

Gary Ware: 00:13:13

And for two hours we, we.

Gary Ware: 00:13:17

and we did these silly games that are designed to help people think better on

Gary Ware: 00:13:22

their feet to be a better storyteller.

Gary Ware: 00:13:24

Uh, but it felt like play, it felt like recess, and I was just

Gary Ware: 00:13:29

blown open, like, what was this?

Gary Ware: 00:13:32

Uh, and I was hooked.

Gary Ware: 00:13:33

And like from day one I was hooked.

Gary Ware: 00:13:34

I was like, this is the most fun thing.

Gary Ware: 00:13:36

Um, I don't even care if it helps me with, with public speaking.

Gary Ware: 00:13:40

I love it.

Gary Ware: 00:13:41

Um, and then, I loved it so much that I would bring the activities

Gary Ware: 00:13:47

that we would do in class to my team.

Gary Ware: 00:13:50

You know, we would play, you know, these silly storytelling games

Gary Ware: 00:13:52

where we're, you know, creating co-creating stories one word at a time.

Gary Ware: 00:13:55

I'll bring it to my team.

Gary Ware: 00:13:56

I'm like, Hey, we should play this again.

Gary Ware: 00:13:59

The, at that point, the, it wasn't about like, Hey, you know, I'm

Gary Ware: 00:14:03

trying to make us more cohesive.

Gary Ware: 00:14:05

Um, I just thought it was fun.

Gary Ware: 00:14:07

And, and this is one of the cool things about play.

Gary Ware: 00:14:10

You know, it, it's inherently enjoyable and, and you want to,

Gary Ware: 00:14:14

you know, you wanna share it.

Gary Ware: 00:14:15

Um, and so, but one of the cool things that I discovered by accident,

Gary Ware: 00:14:20

again, you know, everything.

Gary Ware: 00:14:21

I feel like it's these like, uh, with Hanson Gretto, you know how

Gary Ware: 00:14:25

like they put the breadcrumbs down to help them get back home?

Gary Ware: 00:14:28

I felt like that's what I was doing.

Gary Ware: 00:14:29

I was following these, these breadcrumbs.

Gary Ware: 00:14:31

The first breadcrumb was an improv class.

Gary Ware: 00:14:33

Yeah.

Gary Ware: 00:14:33

And then, I was just following that sort of impulse of like,

Gary Ware: 00:14:37

oh, I should share this.

Gary Ware: 00:14:38

And so over time we did, um, you know, become even more cohesive.

Gary Ware: 00:14:44

You know, we trust each other a lot more.

Gary Ware: 00:14:45

We had higher levels of psychological safety.

Gary Ware: 00:14:48

Um, you know, I would be lying if I was saying that was my intention all along.

Gary Ware: 00:14:52

Uh, that's something that I discovered, like after the fact looking

Gary Ware: 00:14:56

back I'm like, oh yeah, because.

Gary Ware: 00:14:57

We allowed ourselves to be playful.

Gary Ware: 00:14:59

You know, we brought this, these games into the workplace.

Gary Ware: 00:15:02

And so that was the catalyst, that was the thing.

Gary Ware: 00:15:05

And then I was curious.

Gary Ware: 00:15:07

I was like, alright, if Improv did this, what else?

Gary Ware: 00:15:10

And I was, I was, you know, very curious about the topic

Gary Ware: 00:15:14

of play in play for adults.

Gary Ware: 00:15:15

And then that let me on this path.

Gary Ware: 00:15:17

Now the interesting thing is this was all in service of my team,

Gary Ware: 00:15:21

you know, as a, uh, people leader.

Gary Ware: 00:15:24

I didn't think that I.

Gary Ware: 00:15:27

, you know, be where I am now.

Gary Ware: 00:15:28

Mm-hmm.

Gary Ware: 00:15:28

, you know, I, again, I was on that path of like, no, I, you know, I have this career.

Gary Ware: 00:15:32

Um, and then, so I did all the things I thought you should do, you

Gary Ware: 00:15:35

know, as a career, um, especially in marketing and advertising mm-hmm.

Gary Ware: 00:15:39

. And that took me to running my own, um, co-running my

Gary Ware: 00:15:44

own digital marketing agency.

Gary Ware: 00:15:45

I was, uh, one of three partners, um, in this, uh, in this venture.

Gary Ware: 00:15:52

In the beginning.

Gary Ware: 00:15:52

Yeah, it was fun.

Gary Ware: 00:15:53

It was, everything was play.

Gary Ware: 00:15:54

I was bringing all these things that I was learning.

Gary Ware: 00:15:57

It gave me a sandbox to practice these things and I, you know, just for fun, I.

Gary Ware: 00:16:04

Have these little mini meetup groups.

Gary Ware: 00:16:06

I called them recess, where, um, you know, I would help, you know,

Gary Ware: 00:16:09

other adults, you know, we would do these very playful things.

Gary Ware: 00:16:12

Um, and, you know, as a way to just help people unwind and connect.

Gary Ware: 00:16:17

And it was after I.

Gary Ware: 00:16:20

Got back from this retreat that I co-facilitated in Nicaragua where

Gary Ware: 00:16:23

my business partner in the middle of like, it was, I was blindsided.

Gary Ware: 00:16:27

He basically said, um, we should go our separate ways.

Gary Ware: 00:16:31

And, and he sort of just had my buyout check and I was just floored.

Gary Ware: 00:16:35

I was like, What?

Gary Ware: 00:16:36

Like . Oh yeah.

Gary Ware: 00:16:38

And then two.

Gary Ware: 00:16:38

So get this, like when it rains, it pours.

Gary Ware: 00:16:40

Mm-hmm.

Gary Ware: 00:16:41

. So two hours after that, um, my landlord calls and tells me and my wife that he has

Gary Ware: 00:16:46

to sell the house that we've been renting.

Gary Ware: 00:16:48

So my son, uh, my.

Gary Ware: 00:16:51

ELDs is, is one at the time about to be one.

Gary Ware: 00:16:53

And my wife isn't working, is, you know, I'm the, the sole

Gary Ware: 00:16:57

breadwinner of the family.

Gary Ware: 00:16:59

And I went from having, uh, a job that supported me in doing these fun

Gary Ware: 00:17:03

endeavors to like, like, be like, what am I gonna do with my life?

Gary Ware: 00:17:07

And it was my, my wife's support that she like, sort of nudged me.

Gary Ware: 00:17:11

She like, you know this, you know, she didn't even know what to call at the time.

Gary Ware: 00:17:15

Like, this stuff that you're doing with Play , you know, seems very enjoyable.

Gary Ware: 00:17:19

Couldn't you get paid for doing that instead, you know, instead

Gary Ware: 00:17:21

of like going to go find another, you know, agency job, you know?

Gary Ware: 00:17:26

Mm-hmm.

Gary Ware: 00:17:26

. Um, because there was a little bit of shame, you know, where I'm like, oh,

Gary Ware: 00:17:29

now I have to go find a job and tell people that this thing didn't work out.

Gary Ware: 00:17:32

And, and so anyhoo, uh, long story short, that put me on the path of facilitation

Gary Ware: 00:17:37

and bringing, um, playful methods mm-hmm.

Gary Ware: 00:17:42

outside of the team that I was working on to others to help them have the

Gary Ware: 00:17:45

same sort of impact that it had on me.

Gary Ware: 00:17:48

. Tzuki Stewart: Amazing.

Gary Ware: 00:17:48

And what would you say has been the biggest surprise in

Gary Ware: 00:17:52

that journey for you in working

Gary Ware: 00:17:54

with play?

Gary Ware: 00:17:54

that it is a journey.

Gary Ware: 00:17:55

You know?

Gary Ware: 00:17:56

That, that it, um, that.

Gary Ware: 00:17:58

There is so much to learn.

Gary Ware: 00:18:00

So at first, when I first got on this, um, I think I was very naive and I think,

Gary Ware: 00:18:05

and I'm glad that I was, because if I would've known the things that I knew now,

Gary Ware: 00:18:08

I might not have gone on this journey.

Gary Ware: 00:18:11

. I might have just took the easy route and said, no, just go find another job.

Gary Ware: 00:18:15

Uh, because, um, I thought that, oh, this is gonna be a no-brainer.

Gary Ware: 00:18:20

I'm going, I'm gonna tell like it.

Gary Ware: 00:18:23

I'm like, oh, hey, there's this thing called play you probably

Gary Ware: 00:18:27

didn't even know about it.

Gary Ware: 00:18:28

Uh, there's also this thing called improv.

Gary Ware: 00:18:30

It can help your team.

Gary Ware: 00:18:31

Like I thought it would just be that easy to just tell people about it.

Gary Ware: 00:18:34

I'm like, you probably didn't know about this, but hey, here's this

Gary Ware: 00:18:37

thing that's gonna help your team.

Gary Ware: 00:18:38

And I was met with so much resistance.

Gary Ware: 00:18:41

Uh, people were like, that sounds nice and.

Gary Ware: 00:18:45

No, um, we'll, we'll, we'll get back to you on that.

Gary Ware: 00:18:49

Uh, I'm like, no, no, you, you, you don't get it.

Gary Ware: 00:18:51

It is going to like, change everything.

Gary Ware: 00:18:54

Your team is gonna be, uh, you know, so engaged.

Gary Ware: 00:18:57

It's gonna reduce turnover, it's gonna do, and they're like, mm-hmm.

Gary Ware: 00:19:00

Okay.

Gary Ware: 00:19:00

I I hear you.

Gary Ware: 00:19:01

And, uh, you want me to pay you to do what with my team?

Gary Ware: 00:19:06

So I, I had to learn, uh, you know, the, the right way to position this.

Gary Ware: 00:19:11

Um, You know, you might have heard the phrase, uh, sell people, um, what they

Gary Ware: 00:19:16

ask for, give them what they need.

Gary Ware: 00:19:17

So over time I realized, I'm like, oh, all right.

Gary Ware: 00:19:20

This is a positioning thing.

Gary Ware: 00:19:22

Um, you know, and then I was like, I am a trainer.

Gary Ware: 00:19:25

I am a corporate trainer and facilitator, and I help you

Gary Ware: 00:19:29

with soft skills and blah, blah.

Gary Ware: 00:19:30

And then they were like, oh, okay, great.

Gary Ware: 00:19:32

Okay.

Gary Ware: 00:19:33

And then I would bring them playful methods and then, you know, it's

Gary Ware: 00:19:35

like, all right, it's all good.

Gary Ware: 00:19:36

It's like the play

Tzuki Stewart: 00:19:37

Trojan Horse.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:19:39

Yes.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:19:39

So you, you bring it in, then you're like, oh, your place will just come

Tzuki Stewart: 00:19:42

out and you're like, Hey guys, right?

Tzuki Stewart: 00:19:44

Yeah.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:19:45

I love it.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:19:45

I love it.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:19:46

And, and yeah, being on a very, well, I'm on a very similar journey, I

Tzuki Stewart: 00:19:49

think with playful to me and my, my co-founder, and people are like, God,

Tzuki Stewart: 00:19:53

I love what you're talking about.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:19:53

It's like, okay, invest in it then like, Ooh, . Um, but

Tzuki Stewart: 00:20:00

yeah, it's, it's gonna happen.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:20:01

It's gonna happen.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:20:02

, the trickle will turn into a

Gary Ware: 00:20:03

well to that, to that point, it's very experiential, so mm-hmm.

Gary Ware: 00:20:07

people who have experienced it, and then they get it, they will

Gary Ware: 00:20:11

go and tell people like, all right, this is , this play thing.

Gary Ware: 00:20:15

You, you need to talk to Gary.

Gary Ware: 00:20:16

But I still get the same thing, so I, I know to like bring the Trojan

Gary Ware: 00:20:20

horse, but they're like, What did you do for the, like, I, we want

Gary Ware: 00:20:24

what they, what they're having

Tzuki Stewart: 00:20:27

and, and I'm kind of getting a sense in this conversation

Tzuki Stewart: 00:20:29

that sometimes it's hard to articulate exactly what the magic is

Tzuki Stewart: 00:20:34

and especially for other people to articulate it to someone else because,

Tzuki Stewart: 00:20:38

you know, word of mouth referrals, you know, that's obviously golden

Tzuki Stewart: 00:20:41

for a new started for a new business.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:20:44

People want to do that when they've been impressed, but it's sometimes

Tzuki Stewart: 00:20:46

difficult to really, they're like, ah, how do I describe him

Tzuki Stewart: 00:20:48

to my friend working in so-and-so?

Tzuki Stewart: 00:20:50

It's, it's kind of hard to articulate, isn't it?

Tzuki Stewart: 00:20:52

I get a sense.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:20:53

It's been the same for you.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:20:54

It's so experiential, as you say.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:20:56

So in September last year, you published your book Play for

Tzuki Stewart: 00:21:01

Rebellion, maximized Workplace Success through the Power of Play.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:21:04

So tell me, tell me more about that and, and why you think we need a play

Gary Ware: 00:21:09

for rebellion.

Gary Ware: 00:21:10

So, to the point that we were talking about, , you know how play is something

Gary Ware: 00:21:14

that, um, spices everything up.

Gary Ware: 00:21:16

However, as adults, uh, you know, we have become allergic to it.

Gary Ware: 00:21:21

You know, we think it's something that just kids do.

Gary Ware: 00:21:23

Um, I was looking at all of the challenges that, uh, you know,

Gary Ware: 00:21:28

professionals and, and companies are facing, uh, you know, with you.

Gary Ware: 00:21:33

Again, you know, being a successful company, you know, keeping

Gary Ware: 00:21:36

employees and, and creating an environment where people can thrive.

Gary Ware: 00:21:39

And I'm like, play is the answer.

Gary Ware: 00:21:41

However, most people are like, uh, I don't know.

Gary Ware: 00:21:45

You know, I think more hard work is the answer . Cause we,

Tzuki Stewart: 00:21:49

I think doing more faster is the answer actually.

Gary Ware: 00:21:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gary Ware: 00:21:53

Um, and I'm like, play will get you there.

Gary Ware: 00:21:55

You're like, Hmm, are you sure?

Gary Ware: 00:21:56

So, uh, that's where the rebellion comes in.

Gary Ware: 00:21:59

Uh, we need to rebel against the status quo, re rebel against our

Gary Ware: 00:22:04

ingrained thinking, using play as a way so that we can be successful

Gary Ware: 00:22:09

because yeah, just right out the gate, Just because the conditioning,

Gary Ware: 00:22:14

we're just going to not wanna do it.

Gary Ware: 00:22:16

I know, I know all of these things firsthand.

Gary Ware: 00:22:19

I've, I've studied them, I read them, and I still get that allergic

Gary Ware: 00:22:23

reaction, you know, that resistance.

Gary Ware: 00:22:24

And so, you know, we need, we need to rebel playfully, um, you

Gary Ware: 00:22:29

know, as a way so that we can be successful at work, uh, because.

Gary Ware: 00:22:34

, you know, work and play are not mutually exclusive.

Gary Ware: 00:22:36

You know, we, you can't just do one and then, you know, do the other.

Gary Ware: 00:22:39

My dad used to say, Hey, Gary, you know, do your work.

Gary Ware: 00:22:42

Then you can play.

Gary Ware: 00:22:43

And as a kid, you know, and trust me as a, you know, having a five

Gary Ware: 00:22:47

year old, that is very helpful.

Gary Ware: 00:22:49

In those situations.

Gary Ware: 00:22:50

It can be very motivating.

Gary Ware: 00:22:51

However, as an adult, Your to-do list is never done, so you will never

Gary Ware: 00:22:55

play if that is your way of thinking.

Gary Ware: 00:22:57

And so we need to rebel so that we can bring our true selves to work.

Gary Ware: 00:23:02

Um, and so, so that is, you know why the book is called Playful Rebellion?

Gary Ware: 00:23:07

Uh, reason why I wrote the book is that, um, I would lead these playful

Gary Ware: 00:23:13

challenges where I would help people create habits, you know, um, using

Gary Ware: 00:23:17

play and then a number of people.

Gary Ware: 00:23:20

Hey, um, do you have a guide, like a playbook?

Gary Ware: 00:23:23

You know, because it's like when you go to the gym, you can go to the

Gary Ware: 00:23:26

gym one or two times, but that's not going to give you that six pack abs

Gary Ware: 00:23:30

that you want for the summer.

Gary Ware: 00:23:32

.Yeah.

Gary Ware: 00:23:32

You have to be consistent.

Gary Ware: 00:23:33

And so I'm like, all right.

Gary Ware: 00:23:35

And so that was one of the reasons why I said, all right,

Gary Ware: 00:23:38

I will, I will write this book.

Gary Ware: 00:23:40

Um, even though I didn't want to, uh, I, and, and it's not that I didn't wanna

Gary Ware: 00:23:44

share this, it's just that I didn't necessarily consider myself an author.

Gary Ware: 00:23:47

Um, you know, thinking about like, creating playful environments,

Gary Ware: 00:23:50

sitting down and writing did not seem very playful to me.

Gary Ware: 00:23:53

Matter of fact, it, uh, it was something that it reminded me of, like when

Gary Ware: 00:23:57

I was in school and having to write papers and essays and, um, you know,

Gary Ware: 00:24:01

If you really knew me, you would know that I'm dyslexic and I have adhd.

Gary Ware: 00:24:04

So to sit down and focus and to write something, uh, even though I'm excited

Gary Ware: 00:24:09

about it, can be challenging . So, um, I, uh, followed my own advice

Gary Ware: 00:24:15

and I created a playful way to write the book so that I can, um, you

Gary Ware: 00:24:19

know, put this out into the world.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:24:21

What was that playful way?

Gary Ware: 00:24:22

so I like talking and I like telling stories and so,

Gary Ware: 00:24:26

um, . I worked with an editor that, uh, we had an a one hour zoom

Gary Ware: 00:24:33

meeting every week for nine months.

Gary Ware: 00:24:37

And, um, instead of writing the chapters, I would talk the chapters.

Gary Ware: 00:24:41

Um, and because they weren't familiar with the subject matter, it was perfect

Gary Ware: 00:24:45

because they would ask me clarifying questions, and it was all via Zoom.

Gary Ware: 00:24:49

It was all recorded, and then we took.

Gary Ware: 00:24:53

Video recording and transcribed it, and then that became the rough draft

Lucy Taylor rx: 00:24:58

Wow.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:24:58

Amazing.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:25:00

And you used the word just now, allergic.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:25:02

You know, we are kind of a bit of allergic to this idea of play and,

Tzuki Stewart: 00:25:05

and, and that resonates with me, I think of a lot of environments.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:25:09

In my working life where it feels, you know, a certain meeting or a

Tzuki Stewart: 00:25:12

certain workshop and you think, gosh, play feels unwelcome here.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:25:15

You know, if I were to suggest something playfully i'd, they'd

Tzuki Stewart: 00:25:18

be like, oh, a lot of you know it.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:25:20

It can feel like a very not of hostile environment, but it just feels

Tzuki Stewart: 00:25:23

unwelcome and that sense of analogy.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:25:25

So how do you overcome that kind of allergic reaction with your

Tzuki Stewart: 00:25:29

work with Breakthrough Player, your

Gary Ware: 00:25:31

company?

Gary Ware: 00:25:32

Yeah.

Gary Ware: 00:25:33

It, it, it starts by meeting people where they are, you know, realizing

Gary Ware: 00:25:35

that, um, you know, they may, um, you know, they may not be used to that sort

Gary Ware: 00:25:43

of, um, interaction experience and then starting slow, but trusting the process,

Gary Ware: 00:25:49

knowing that we are wired for play.

Gary Ware: 00:25:51

It is there deep down inside and creating an environment.

Gary Ware: 00:25:57

where over time we can sort of ramp it up a little bit and know that, you know,

Gary Ware: 00:26:02

when people are invited and they feel safe, they will, they will play mm-hmm.

Gary Ware: 00:26:08

. Tzuki Stewart: Mm-hmm.

Gary Ware: 00:26:09

to trust the process.

Gary Ware: 00:26:11

And then I think also it's a, it's that feeling of.

Gary Ware: 00:26:14

players gonna look and feel different for each of us, you know?

Gary Ware: 00:26:16

So what you find play for is, you talked about play personalities

Gary Ware: 00:26:19

earlier in our conversation.

Gary Ware: 00:26:20

You know, the joker shows up in you.

Gary Ware: 00:26:21

And for other people, that's like the opposite of how they play.

Gary Ware: 00:26:24

And it's just being generous and diverse and how you kind of understand

Gary Ware: 00:26:29

people's own way of play and, and what it, what it means to them.

Gary Ware: 00:26:33

And I guess, When I think about my work with Play Field and, you know, using

Gary Ware: 00:26:38

playful methods with clients and, and also my other work, which is in kind

Gary Ware: 00:26:42

of change and transformation projects more widely, I guess I, I completely

Gary Ware: 00:26:48

have seen and felt firsthand the power of play and I, and I wanna like

Gary Ware: 00:26:51

spread it like all does wherever I go.

Gary Ware: 00:26:53

But that's that point of kind of where does it feel appropriate

Gary Ware: 00:26:56

and welcome to introduce it.

Gary Ware: 00:26:58

And I guess to play devil's advocate, do you think.

Gary Ware: 00:27:02

, are we being unrealistic to try and bring play and work together?

Gary Ware: 00:27:07

Yes, it is an unreal, it, it's a, it's a tall order to fill.

Gary Ware: 00:27:12

However, I feel like it's necessary to, to get us to this next level

Gary Ware: 00:27:17

where we can be sustainable.

Gary Ware: 00:27:21

Mm-hmm.

Gary Ware: 00:27:22

, because the way that we're working now is not working . Mm.

Gary Ware: 00:27:27

to have people work so much and be under so much stress that

Gary Ware: 00:27:33

their body just shuts down.

Gary Ware: 00:27:34

You know, our bodies aren't used to dealing with that this much stress.

Gary Ware: 00:27:38

Mm-hmm.

Gary Ware: 00:27:38

, you know, you're, you're used to having a stressor, you know,

Gary Ware: 00:27:42

whatever it is, dealing with it.

Gary Ware: 00:27:43

All right, cool.

Gary Ware: 00:27:44

You know, and moving on, you know, our brains are a bit prehistoric in

Gary Ware: 00:27:47

that, however, , the daily stress of life is just keeping our brain in that

Gary Ware: 00:27:52

fight, flight or freeze mentality.

Gary Ware: 00:27:54

Mm-hmm.

Gary Ware: 00:27:54

. And we need something else.

Gary Ware: 00:27:55

And this is, in my opinion, um, you know, I, I, I want someone to prove me wrong.

Gary Ware: 00:28:00

Like, I feel like play is that thing that is going to, uh, alleviate stress now.

Gary Ware: 00:28:05

It's not, it's, it's something like that needs to be sort of sprinkled in.

Gary Ware: 00:28:09

You know, like if you have too much salt in your soup, like it,

Gary Ware: 00:28:12

it's, it's not gonna taste right.

Gary Ware: 00:28:13

So, yeah.

Gary Ware: 00:28:14

You know, there's a time and place for it.

Gary Ware: 00:28:18

The amount that you add, you know, depends on the situation and it feels like

Tzuki Stewart: 00:28:24

how to move beyond this kind of play as a quick fix.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:28:27

You know, everyone's keen for it for an afternoon and that's great.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:28:30

Right.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:28:30

That can be your entry point.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:28:31

That's your entry truck, but Yep.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:28:33

But it's the, the, the evolution into part of the sustainable picture of

Tzuki Stewart: 00:28:38

how we work and how we're successful.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:28:40

That's, that's yet to come.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:28:42

I think that's the work, yeah.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:28:43

Ahead of us.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:28:45

Cool.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:28:47

I'm keeping on time.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:28:47

I know you've got some amazing work to deliver later on today, so I am

Tzuki Stewart: 00:28:51

gonna keep us, keep us at time, but let's, let's talk now about some

Tzuki Stewart: 00:28:55

really kind of practical examples.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:28:56

So yes, I'd love to hear about, okay, maybe you've got, if you

Tzuki Stewart: 00:29:00

think of your last three clients or maybe who you're going to see

Tzuki Stewart: 00:29:02

today or think of some clients and tell us why did they bring you in?

Tzuki Stewart: 00:29:08

What were they trying to achieve?

Tzuki Stewart: 00:29:10

And yes, obviously as everyone asks, what was the impact?

Gary Ware: 00:29:14

All right.

Gary Ware: 00:29:14

Yes.

Gary Ware: 00:29:14

And this is what I call play plus where play is, in my opinion,

Gary Ware: 00:29:19

uh, the cheat code for success.

Gary Ware: 00:29:21

Um, you know, you add play to anything and it makes it even better.

Gary Ware: 00:29:24

Um, like for example, like my mom wanted me to eat vegetables.

Gary Ware: 00:29:28

Uh, and as a kid, you know, I didn't want to eat vegetables.

Gary Ware: 00:29:31

She added vegetables to Mackay and cheese, . Stacy, I eat vegetables.

Gary Ware: 00:29:35

I don't know if that is the best parenting thing, but again, having a young child

Gary Ware: 00:29:38

now, I'm like, do what you gotta do.

Gary Ware: 00:29:41

So, So thinking about some of the last clients I had, they had a very specific

Gary Ware: 00:29:47

challenge and I brought a playful method as a way to help them achieve that.

Gary Ware: 00:29:52

So one was, uh, you know, , uh, helping, uh, a team be better storytellers,

Gary Ware: 00:29:59

um, you know, be better presenting.

Gary Ware: 00:30:02

Uh, if you look at the data, I know here in the US uh, public speaking

Gary Ware: 00:30:06

is the second biggest fear to death.

Gary Ware: 00:30:09

Oh my goodness.

Gary Ware: 00:30:09

Death, public speaking and spiders

Gary Ware: 00:30:15

Okay.

Gary Ware: 00:30:17

However, we need to communicate, right?

Gary Ware: 00:30:18

We need to communicate it.

Gary Ware: 00:30:20

You know, if we can't communicate, you know, how can we progress?

Gary Ware: 00:30:23

So, um, they brought me in, uh, to help them develop, uh, better storytelling

Gary Ware: 00:30:29

skills, better public speaking skills, demystified public speaking, and I

Gary Ware: 00:30:33

did that through playful methods.

Gary Ware: 00:30:36

So instead of like putting people on the spot knowing that they're going to

Gary Ware: 00:30:39

be terrified, and it's like, all right.

Gary Ware: 00:30:40

Give me your speech and then you know that's not gonna help them get better.

Gary Ware: 00:30:44

Uh, what we did, we played games and activities that allowed them to practice

Gary Ware: 00:30:50

the different, um, nuances of public speaking in a fun and playful environment.

Gary Ware: 00:30:55

And as a result, they were able to get those reps in and

Gary Ware: 00:31:00

feel more comfortable public.

Gary Ware: 00:31:02

. Um, and so, um, you know, one of the games that you know, that I did, uh,

Gary Ware: 00:31:07

was, um, so we, we did a few things.

Gary Ware: 00:31:09

One, um, I I realized that people don't know time.

Gary Ware: 00:31:14

You know, time is one of those things that is very, uh, very finicky.

Gary Ware: 00:31:18

Like, you know, like this, this feels like man time's going by so much fun.

Gary Ware: 00:31:21

We're, we're, you know, so fast.

Gary Ware: 00:31:22

It feels like time is going by so fast.

Gary Ware: 00:31:24

We're having a lot of fun.

Gary Ware: 00:31:25

However, if you're in another situation, the same amount of time can.

Gary Ware: 00:31:29

Like hours . And so we did this really fun activity where I had them, uh,

Gary Ware: 00:31:34

close their eyes and I was the only one who knew how much time really passed.

Gary Ware: 00:31:38

And I said, we're gonna sit here in silence.

Gary Ware: 00:31:41

And when you think a minute is up, I want you to stand up.

Gary Ware: 00:31:46

. And so they all sat there and oh my gosh, it was so funny.

Gary Ware: 00:31:50

Um, you know where some people stood up?

Gary Ware: 00:31:53

I kid you not, after 15 seconds, 15 seconds.

Gary Ware: 00:31:58

And they like, it's been a minute.

Gary Ware: 00:31:59

And like they stand up and then, and so what I did as a way to

Gary Ware: 00:32:02

really, uh, emphasize my point, um, you know, they were able to stand

Gary Ware: 00:32:07

up, they could open their eyes.

Gary Ware: 00:32:08

Um, I.

Gary Ware: 00:32:09

Like, stop the timer.

Gary Ware: 00:32:10

Exactly.

Gary Ware: 00:32:11

After a minute.

Gary Ware: 00:32:11

I stopped it after two minutes.

Gary Ware: 00:32:13

But the, the whole point is to just let them know like, Hey,

Gary Ware: 00:32:17

you know, our internal clocks, depending on the situation is flawed.

Gary Ware: 00:32:21

You know, we can't always judge our internal emotions on what's going on.

Gary Ware: 00:32:25

And, you know, then we do a debrief, or what does this have

Gary Ware: 00:32:28

to do with public speaking?

Gary Ware: 00:32:29

Well, with public speaking, we know that pauses are impactful.

Gary Ware: 00:32:34

. However, when you're in a moment when you're nervous, you are

Gary Ware: 00:32:38

going to think that that pause, that, you know, three second pause

Gary Ware: 00:32:44

is gonna feel like an eternity.

Gary Ware: 00:32:46

So guess what?

Gary Ware: 00:32:47

Your brain is off.

Gary Ware: 00:32:48

So again, that that little example, that playful example,

Gary Ware: 00:32:52

allowed them to experience that.

Gary Ware: 00:32:55

Yeah, you're right.

Gary Ware: 00:32:56

You know, whereas I'm like, all right, we're gonna practice.

Gary Ware: 00:32:58

So it was still awkward.

Gary Ware: 00:33:00

However, it was playful and then it had a point again, that Trojan horse,

Gary Ware: 00:33:04

you know, and then we did, you know, other things where, uh, we did some

Gary Ware: 00:33:08

really fun storytelling things where they did a mashup where they told

Gary Ware: 00:33:12

stories about what they did through the lens of what they like to do.

Gary Ware: 00:33:16

Mm-hmm.

Gary Ware: 00:33:16

as a way to realize that when we talk about things that are fun, , we

Gary Ware: 00:33:21

naturally are more, um, outgoing.

Gary Ware: 00:33:24

Our, our tone's better.

Gary Ware: 00:33:25

You know, we did all these things and then by the end of it they, you

Gary Ware: 00:33:29

know, they actually got up and did some of their talks and they were.

Gary Ware: 00:33:33

Way better.

Gary Ware: 00:33:34

They were way better than, you know.

Gary Ware: 00:33:36

Again, you know, I could have gone in and like, all right, we're

Gary Ware: 00:33:39

gonna talk about public speaking.

Gary Ware: 00:33:40

Did you know that your actual words is only 3%?

Gary Ware: 00:33:43

You know, all this other stuff.

Gary Ware: 00:33:44

Yeah, it's useful information, but it's better if they experience it

Gary Ware: 00:33:47

and it's better if they experience it in a playful way, because they

Gary Ware: 00:33:50

will be more likely to re retain that information when the stakes are.

Gary Ware: 00:33:56

So that is just one thing.

Gary Ware: 00:33:57

Another, so again, I call it play plus.

Gary Ware: 00:34:00

So if you add, you know, um, you know, play to like public speaking, you're

Gary Ware: 00:34:04

gonna be an, uh, entertaining presenter.

Gary Ware: 00:34:07

Um, you know, people often bring me in, um, to help them be

Gary Ware: 00:34:10

more creative, more innovative.

Gary Ware: 00:34:12

Um, again, that's where.

Gary Ware: 00:34:13

Improv thinking comes in.

Gary Ware: 00:34:15

Um, and so, you know, we'll do a workshop where we would talk about the, you

Gary Ware: 00:34:18

know, the basics of improv, like Yes.

Gary Ware: 00:34:20

And better listing and things like that.

Gary Ware: 00:34:22

Mm-hmm.

Gary Ware: 00:34:23

. And we do activities and then, you know, then we put them in real life

Gary Ware: 00:34:26

situations where they need to brainstorm, where they need to be innovative,

Gary Ware: 00:34:30

and they find that they are better.

Gary Ware: 00:34:33

And so, uh, one last thing that you know, I started doing, um, especially

Gary Ware: 00:34:38

because of the pandemic, is just helping people connect , you know,

Gary Ware: 00:34:41

creating a playful environment where people can actually have conversations,

Gary Ware: 00:34:46

um, and then they find that they actually know each other a bit better.

Gary Ware: 00:34:49

So again, Uh, the opportunities are endless.

Gary Ware: 00:34:53

That's why we need more people doing this work, uh, so that we can help

Gary Ware: 00:34:57

people, um, you know, really just be their best versions of themselves.

Gary Ware: 00:35:01

And on top of that, when they.

Gary Ware: 00:35:03

Like one of the things I love to do is afterwards I'm like, this was fun, right?

Gary Ware: 00:35:07

You enjoyed yourself.

Gary Ware: 00:35:08

Imagine if you created an environment where on a day-to-day basis you add,

Gary Ware: 00:35:13

you sprinkle in some play, you know, and you created a playful environment.

Gary Ware: 00:35:16

You know what?

Gary Ware: 00:35:17

That would happen like once I'm gone, so yeah.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:35:19

I love the, the more I can hear about, you know,

Tzuki Stewart: 00:35:22

tangible, concrete, what did you do?

Tzuki Stewart: 00:35:24

Why, you know, why were you brought in, what happened?

Tzuki Stewart: 00:35:26

It's just, I think it's so helpful back to that articulation point as to,

Tzuki Stewart: 00:35:30

you know, what is the power of this in language and, and challenges that, that

Tzuki Stewart: 00:35:34

leaders might be kind of experiencing.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:35:36

So, really helpful.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:35:37

Thank you.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:35:38

And we are drawing to the end of our time together, unfortunately.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:35:41

So I'll, I'll kind of round off with, um, again, keeping our kind of feet on the.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:35:47

On the ground and, and thinking playfully and practically, do you have

Tzuki Stewart: 00:35:52

a playful practice that you use in your work or you use other people that

Tzuki Stewart: 00:35:57

our listener could try themselves?

Gary Ware: 00:35:59

Yes.

Gary Ware: 00:36:00

So, uh, like I said, play can, uh, be spiced into any sort of training

Gary Ware: 00:36:05

and it can make things a lot better.

Gary Ware: 00:36:07

. And on top of that, if you want to just spice up your sort of day to day,

Gary Ware: 00:36:12

um, you know, I call it the playful practice and it's very, very simple.

Gary Ware: 00:36:17

I like to think of inflection points throughout the day, uh, that could use

Gary Ware: 00:36:21

a bit of play and think about what, what sort of state do you need to be in, you

Gary Ware: 00:36:27

know, what sort of energy state do you need to be in, and what sort of playful

Gary Ware: 00:36:30

thing could you do to get you into that?

Gary Ware: 00:36:33

So again, the umbrella of play is doing something, you know, just for

Gary Ware: 00:36:37

the sake of doing it, that is going to like, make you feel more relaxed and

Gary Ware: 00:36:41

more, you know, sort of in the zone.

Gary Ware: 00:36:43

Um, like for example, uh, some very specific things is that

Gary Ware: 00:36:48

we need to take more breaks.

Gary Ware: 00:36:49

Let's just be honest.

Gary Ware: 00:36:50

We, we have a tendency to feel like we just need to keep working.

Gary Ware: 00:36:54

There is research that shows that humans we're bad at predicting our

Gary Ware: 00:36:58

level of energy, uh, and that's why we keep powering through.

Gary Ware: 00:37:02

However, if you keep powering through, you're going to make more mistakes.

Gary Ware: 00:37:07

So what I like to do is I actually like to block out time.

Gary Ware: 00:37:12

for like, you know, arrest a break.

Gary Ware: 00:37:15

Um, and I will honor it just like I would honor any other meeting.

Gary Ware: 00:37:18

And I have to do this in advance because again, in the moment I'm

Gary Ware: 00:37:22

not, I'm, I'm gonna like, no, no, no.

Gary Ware: 00:37:24

I, I can do it.

Gary Ware: 00:37:25

I can keep going.

Gary Ware: 00:37:25

Like, so that's the first thing is, you know, honor this.

Gary Ware: 00:37:29

Put that time in.

Gary Ware: 00:37:30

If you don't wanna call it play, call it rest, call it self care.

Gary Ware: 00:37:33

Call it a, like, whatever you need to call it, call it that.

Gary Ware: 00:37:36

And here's the thing, when that time comes, , what is something that is

Gary Ware: 00:37:40

going to, that you can do that is going to, I call it, powering you up

Gary Ware: 00:37:45

so that you can jump back into the.

Gary Ware: 00:37:47

and be more focused, uh, be more productive.

Gary Ware: 00:37:50

and like you said earlier, you know, at the top of the show,

Gary Ware: 00:37:53

it's very personal for everyone.

Gary Ware: 00:37:54

Uh, and the easiest way to find that out is like, what is something that you

Gary Ware: 00:37:59

love to do, you know, as a child that you can bring back now, you know, as an

Gary Ware: 00:38:04

adult and spend some time doing that.

Gary Ware: 00:38:06

Um, it may seem kind of like childish or, you know, whatever.

Gary Ware: 00:38:10

Get over that.

Gary Ware: 00:38:11

Allowed yourself to experiment with it.

Gary Ware: 00:38:13

I say test it out.

Gary Ware: 00:38:15

try it.

Gary Ware: 00:38:16

Yeah.

Gary Ware: 00:38:16

Uh, if you don't like it, try something else.

Gary Ware: 00:38:18

Uh, for me personally, I know growing up, um, I used to, you know, play with Legos.

Gary Ware: 00:38:23

Um, I grew up in the time where there wasn't like kits that had

Gary Ware: 00:38:27

instructions to build things.

Gary Ware: 00:38:28

It was just like a bucket of Legos.

Gary Ware: 00:38:30

Uh, and so yeah, we would just build stuff like, you know.

Gary Ware: 00:38:34

And so I have like within an arms reach.

Gary Ware: 00:38:38

Some Legos that, you know, I can pull out and I can just sort of, yeah.

Gary Ware: 00:38:41

Play around with and it just allows me to step away from the work.

Gary Ware: 00:38:44

It allows me to do something very tactile.

Gary Ware: 00:38:47

Mm-hmm.

Gary Ware: 00:38:47

. Um, because I like to say that if I'm doing brain work, um, I probably

Gary Ware: 00:38:52

shouldn't, like when I'm resting, I probably shouldn't do something

Gary Ware: 00:38:54

that, you know, is going to like.

Gary Ware: 00:38:56

You know, uh, stimulate my brain, maybe do something else.

Gary Ware: 00:38:59

So, mm-hmm.

Gary Ware: 00:38:59

, you know, that, you know, some people might be more kinesthetic, so, you know,

Gary Ware: 00:39:03

get up and walk around, do some dancing.

Gary Ware: 00:39:05

I, again, it seems very silly, however, , it has major impacts in how we feel.

Gary Ware: 00:39:11

It's going to release dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin, endorphins,

Gary Ware: 00:39:14

all of those neurochemicals that you need to be successful.

Gary Ware: 00:39:18

Mm-hmm.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:39:19

Ah, just talk about that.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:39:20

Actually, I wanna get up, I wanna stretch, I wanna, you know, when you have a

Tzuki Stewart: 00:39:23

really good stretch and you just like can hear my body crying out for that.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:39:26

Now that's what I'm gonna do.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:39:27

When you say goodbye, it's just 10 minute stretch and looking forward to that.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:39:31

Um, okay.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:39:32

Is there anything I should have asked you in this conversation that I have?

Tzuki Stewart: 00:39:36

Not.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:39:36

Anything you wanna share?

Tzuki Stewart: 00:39:37

I've not invited out.

Gary Ware: 00:39:39

You asked all the right questions.

Gary Ware: 00:39:41

You asked me.

Gary Ware: 00:39:42

I didn't even think of that.

Gary Ware: 00:39:43

So I, I like to think that this is very, uh, you know, overarching, uh, and I don't

Gary Ware: 00:39:49

want to, you know, in the spirit of making it practical so that people can actually

Gary Ware: 00:39:54

get started and do something I don't want.

Gary Ware: 00:39:56

I'm just going to leave it at that.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:39:59

Thank you so much, Gary.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:40:00

It's been a huge pleasure spending time with

Gary Ware: 00:40:02

you.

Gary Ware: 00:40:03

Yeah, this is so much fun.

Lucy Taylor: 00:40:10

So what did you take away from that conversation?

Lucy Taylor: 00:40:12

Suki.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:40:15

I really loved how we explored this idea of

Tzuki Stewart: 00:40:19

what did we love as a child, what was played to us as children.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:40:22

I think I often feel this innate desire to steer the conversation away from

Tzuki Stewart: 00:40:27

kind of that linkage with childhood.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:40:29

The whole player's childish.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:40:30

I'm so keen to get away from that, that I don't.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:40:33

Dive into the thread between us as adults and us as you know, little people.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:40:37

And I love the kind of went there with Gary and this idea of what do we feel like

Tzuki Stewart: 00:40:42

we might be lacking in our adult lives?

Tzuki Stewart: 00:40:43

This idea of the kind of deficit, the deficiencies that

Tzuki Stewart: 00:40:46

we might have in our adult life.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:40:47

And does that thread lead back to what we had as children and kind

Tzuki Stewart: 00:40:51

of, yeah, how can we just reconnect with what we loved as children?

Tzuki Stewart: 00:40:54

I just, I really liked going down that, that memory lane,

Tzuki Stewart: 00:40:57

I suppose, and indulging.

Lucy Taylor: 00:40:59

Oh yeah.

Lucy Taylor: 00:41:00

And listening to it, I absolutely loved the image of little Suki singing

Lucy Taylor: 00:41:05

to the mountains and the beautiful connection that you made back to, you

Lucy Taylor: 00:41:10

know, to your adult self and your choir.

Lucy Taylor: 00:41:12

That felt really special.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:41:14

Mm.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:41:15

Yeah.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:41:15

And it was, uh, yeah, kind of.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:41:17

I definitely went down memory lane there.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:41:19

It's so visceral that memory.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:41:21

I

Lucy Taylor: 00:41:21

Yeah.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:41:22

I can even, yeah, I can remember it in all my senses doing

Tzuki Stewart: 00:41:25

that and yeah, I'm really glad that.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:41:29

, I've kind of acknowledged how important that is, like singing felt.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:41:32

So as I say, it's the second one I've used.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:41:34

The second time I've used this word indulgent, but it kind of feels like

Tzuki Stewart: 00:41:37

I've got, you know, I'm too busy.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:41:38

I've got too many responsibilities to just kind of indulge myself

Tzuki Stewart: 00:41:40

and go to sing in a choir.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:41:41

But I recognize that thread from little me and adult me, and I hope I

Tzuki Stewart: 00:41:47

actually have it for my whole life now.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:41:49

Um, but no, that was, that was a lovely reflection.

Lucy Taylor: 00:41:52

I was just gonna pick up on, you know, saying

Lucy Taylor: 00:41:54

that that was so visceral.

Lucy Taylor: 00:41:55

I thought it was really interesting how he talked later on about giving people

Lucy Taylor: 00:42:01

that experience of how long a minute was.

Lucy Taylor: 00:42:05

In relation to the pauses that you take when you're giving a presentation and how

Lucy Taylor: 00:42:10

actually doing something in that embodied like that and in that playful way, Will

Lucy Taylor: 00:42:16

give people such a different memory that will stick with them in, as you say, a

Lucy Taylor: 00:42:21

visceral way and is so much more powerful than somebody just telling you that

Lucy Taylor: 00:42:25

pauses are important in a presentation.

Lucy Taylor: 00:42:28

You know when you feel what a pause, a particular length of pause is, and you sat

Lucy Taylor: 00:42:32

there and you can feel it in your body.

Lucy Taylor: 00:42:35

It's so different, I think.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:42:37

Yeah.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:42:37

Absolutely.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:42:38

What else came up for you when you were listening back to our conversation?

Lucy Taylor: 00:42:41

I really liked hearing about his approach to writing his book,

Lucy Taylor: 00:42:46

so the talking of the chapters rather than the writing of the chapters.

Lucy Taylor: 00:42:49

Cuz I definitely, I feel a real barrier sometimes when it comes to writing things

Lucy Taylor: 00:42:56

and that just may, you know, he found his own way to be playful with something that

Lucy Taylor: 00:42:59

didn't naturally feel playful to him.

Lucy Taylor: 00:43:01

And I thought that was really interesting.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:43:04

Mm, absolutely.

Lucy Taylor: 00:43:06

How about you?

Tzuki Stewart: 00:43:07

I thought there was something kind of quietly radical,

Tzuki Stewart: 00:43:10

and when he was talking about how he'd experienced improv and he

Tzuki Stewart: 00:43:14

then kind of took back some of the practices to his team and he was.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:43:19

. You know, my only purpose in doing that and sharing those exercises

Tzuki Stewart: 00:43:22

with, with my team was to bring laughter and lightness as, as a group.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:43:26

You know, I was not trying to achieve any other end.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:43:28

It was just to make people laugh to, to, to establish that correct connection.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:43:31

And as you said, it kind of, it resulted in incredible closeness and bonds and

Tzuki Stewart: 00:43:35

this environment of psychological safety, but he never set out to achieve that.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:43:40

And I just, I dunno, that kind of struck me as like quietly radical

Tzuki Stewart: 00:43:43

that you can have such an impact without setting out to achieve it.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:43:48

Just by thinking there's value in creating this moment of

Tzuki Stewart: 00:43:52

laughter and lightness in my team.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:43:54

Um, and, and kind of what he achieved by doing that without kind of setting out

Tzuki Stewart: 00:43:57

to do that I thought was, was amazing.

Lucy Taylor: 00:43:59

Yeah, those surprise benefits.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:44:02

One thing also, I, I was really impressed by.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:44:06

, when I was listening back on the conversation, I was kind of curious, I

Tzuki Stewart: 00:44:08

wish I'd asked more about it, but when he was the kind of sole breadwinner

Tzuki Stewart: 00:44:13

and his, you know, agency role ended and his wife said, Hey, you seem

Tzuki Stewart: 00:44:17

to really love this kind of play facilitation thing you've got going on.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:44:21

Um, and how he could, he kind of took that message and he was like, yes, I'm gonna

Tzuki Stewart: 00:44:25

create, you know, a living outta this.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:44:27

I'm gonna pursue this full-time.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:44:29

And I thought I was just fascinated by the.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:44:32

tension between doing something that is light and playful and as

Tzuki Stewart: 00:44:36

you said, plays about just doing something because you enjoy it.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:44:40

And how he was able to maintain that authentically in a time of kind of

Tzuki Stewart: 00:44:44

real responsibility where he was, as you say, the only breadwinner and he

Tzuki Stewart: 00:44:47

had to go out and support his family through that playfulness and lightness.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:44:51

And I just, I dunno, I felt that there must have been such a tension

Tzuki Stewart: 00:44:54

there and I was amazed that.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:44:56

Able to keep it true and authentic like that rather than letting

Tzuki Stewart: 00:45:00

the stress kind of impact it.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:45:03

So I wish I'd kind of explored that more with him.

Lucy Taylor: 00:45:06

I really liked what he said about picking up the

Lucy Taylor: 00:45:08

breadcrumbs and that's something I could really relate to cuz that

Lucy Taylor: 00:45:11

was the way that I found this work.

Lucy Taylor: 00:45:13

Just picking up, you know, a breadcrumb of something that I

Lucy Taylor: 00:45:16

found really engaging and fun.

Lucy Taylor: 00:45:17

And then another one and then another one.

Lucy Taylor: 00:45:20

Um, and I thought that was a really nice way of describing it.

Lucy Taylor: 00:45:24

Um, yeah, I also thought there was something really important.

Lucy Taylor: 00:45:31

, uh, in what he said about, you know, as a kid, he was the joke, a joker.

Lucy Taylor: 00:45:35

That was his kind of way of being playful.

Lucy Taylor: 00:45:37

And actually at some point he got shamed for that and he hid that away

Lucy Taylor: 00:45:41

as something that was wrong and, you know, wasn't part of, shouldn't

Lucy Taylor: 00:45:45

be part of life or adult life.

Lucy Taylor: 00:45:47

And the lovely rediscovering that and the leaning into that as his, you know, his.

Lucy Taylor: 00:45:56

Persona and something that he's made a living out of ultimately

Lucy Taylor: 00:46:00

and the transformation that it feels has gone on there.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:46:05

absolutely.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:46:06

What other reflections did you have?

Lucy Taylor: 00:46:09

I loved that.

Lucy Taylor: 00:46:10

Um, play plus.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:46:12

Yeah.

Lucy Taylor: 00:46:13

adding a bit of play to anything makes it better.

Lucy Taylor: 00:46:16

It's like, yeah.

Lucy Taylor: 00:46:17

It totally does, and also who knew public speaking was on a par with

Lucy Taylor: 00:46:22

death and spiders when it comes to.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:46:26

I know it's dark, isn't it?

Tzuki Stewart: 00:46:28

It is pretty scary.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:46:30

I, um, I love just two of the kind of really practical tips as well, this idea.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:46:36

You know, blocking time, scheduling time, proactively carving it out in

Tzuki Stewart: 00:46:39

advance to, and he said, you know, you can call it play or you can call it

Tzuki Stewart: 00:46:42

rest, you can call it something else.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:46:43

So you don't have to be precious about the labels, but, kind

Tzuki Stewart: 00:46:47

of not being spontaneous.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:46:49

I think that's really, that's, that's something that can feel

Tzuki Stewart: 00:46:51

more realistic, as I say, right?

Tzuki Stewart: 00:46:53

I am just gonna carve out this 30 minutes or this hour to do something, you

Tzuki Stewart: 00:46:56

know, on Thursday afternoon for myself.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:46:59

And the trickiness, as you said, was honoring that as you would

Tzuki Stewart: 00:47:02

honor a commitment to someone else.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:47:04

How do you honor the commitment to yourself?

Tzuki Stewart: 00:47:05

So that's not easy, but I just love that really practical element of.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:47:10

Proactively, intentionally scheduling that time with yourself to do

Tzuki Stewart: 00:47:14

what you need to do, and also the practical element of having almost

Tzuki Stewart: 00:47:17

like a prop where you were working.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:47:19

So he said here you had kind like a, you know, a little, some Lego.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:47:22

I love how Americans come, Legos.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:47:24

Have you noticed this?

Tzuki Stewart: 00:47:25

Legos is always plural.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:47:26

We speak to our lovely US comrades.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:47:29

Um, so it's just that idea of kind of when you are like noodling on something

Tzuki Stewart: 00:47:32

to let your hands absent mindedly play with something and to have a kind

Tzuki Stewart: 00:47:35

of prop that you can just dip into, dip out to, um, dip out of rather.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:47:40

I like that idea as well.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:47:41

Just not there for any particular purpose, but just, yeah, absent

Tzuki Stewart: 00:47:46

mindedly, let your, let your fingers wander while you need on something.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:47:48

I like that idea of having a prop.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:47:52

Thank you so much for listening today.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:47:54

If you enjoy this episode, please do rate and review as it really

Tzuki Stewart: 00:47:58

helps us to reach other listeners.

Tzuki Stewart: 00:48:00

We are releasing episodes every two weeks, so do hit subscribe

Tzuki Stewart: 00:48:04

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Tzuki Stewart: 00:48:08

Don't forget, you can find us@www.whyplayworks.com or

Tzuki Stewart: 00:48:14

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Tzuki Stewart: 00:48:16

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Tzuki Stewart: 00:48:20

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Lucy Taylor: 00:48:26

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Lucy Taylor: 00:48:29

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Lucy Taylor: 00:48:33

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Lucy Taylor: 00:48:36

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Lucy Taylor: 00:48:39

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Lucy Taylor: 00:48:43

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