Play connects us
Play is a powerful connector, transcending boundaries of culture and background. That’s the philosophy that Kay Scorah brings to her play practise.
Kay is a facilitator, coach, comedian, dancer, writer, and general polymath. Kay started work as a research biophysicist, before moving into market research and subsequently into advertising. She now runs HaveMoreFunlimited, working with individuals and groups to improve verbal and non-verbal communication.
Things to consider
- Set micro-challenges throughout your day, to inject a bit more play.
- If “play” feels to unstructured or lacking parameters, you can approach it as an experiment.
- The separation of work and play begins at school and permeates our society.
- How can we, as leaders, share our vulnerability and allow others to do the same?
- Allow yourself to be distracted.
Links
Transcript
Hello.
Speaker:Welcome to the show.
Speaker:My name's Lucy Taylor from Make Work Play.
Speaker:And I'm Tzuki Stewart from Playfilled.
Speaker:Together we are Why Play works, the podcast that speaks to
Speaker:people, radically reshaping.
Speaker:The idea of work as play.
Speaker:Today, I'll be speaking to facilitator, coach, comedian, dancer writer, and all
Speaker:round polymathic wonder, Kay Scorah.
Speaker:After graduating in biochemistry, Kay started her working life as a research
Speaker:biophysicist before making the rather left field move into market research,
Speaker:and then advertising after working as a strategist and then planning
Speaker:director at two London agencies, she quit the ad world in 1988 to start her
Speaker:own business, Have More Fun Limited.
Speaker:She works with individuals and groups on being 100% you and improving
Speaker:communication by developing better listening skills and enhancing our use
Speaker:of verbal and nonverbal expression.
Speaker:She's been helped in this by studying, acting at the Beverly Hills Playhouse
Speaker:yoga therapy and several dance floor.
Speaker:She's recently circled back to her scientist roots and began to dive deep
Speaker:into academic research on the relationship between thought emotion and action.
Speaker:In 2019 Kay created the Turning the Tables conference, an event where
Speaker:corporate and local government leaders come to learn from young people
Speaker:who've overcome extreme challenges.
Speaker:She also writes, producers and performs theater and stand up comedy.
Speaker:And as chair of the volunteer board of Creative Dance London.
Speaker:In this episode, we explore how play can help us break old habits and find new
Speaker:ways of thinking why we need to start with our bodies when it comes to play.
Speaker:And the importance of finding your playful tribe.
Speaker:Plus Kay gives you an enormous wealth of accessible playful
Speaker:practices to take into your day.
Speaker:So I'd love it.
Speaker:If we could start with you just telling us a little bit about what you do and
Speaker:how play fits into your kind of magical, diverse polymathic working world.
Speaker:It's it's always difficult.
Speaker:As you know, when people say, what do you do for me to answer that?
Speaker:Because you know, 67 years I've I do quite a lot, but I guess my favorite
Speaker:nickname for me, That a client came up with was the witch of noticing.
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:And I like to think that that's what I do.
Speaker:I notice for living.
Speaker:I notice people, I noticed people as individuals, centers, groups, and then
Speaker:I described to them what I notice.
Speaker:And then we play with that.
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:I love that kind of, um, yeah, just the presence that is implied in that.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:And it's such a gift, isn't it?
Speaker:And you know this, that when we're brought in by other organizations,
Speaker:we have the blessing of being so present because we haven't got the
Speaker:whole politics, the structures, the hierarchies in our minds, we can just
Speaker:be present and it's, it's a real gift.
Speaker:Um, and so before we kind of dive into, you know, your stories of play
Speaker:at work, I'd love to just hear from you, what does play mean for you?
Speaker:Play for me is, is much more about experiment.
Speaker:I like to think of play as an experiment with what's around me.
Speaker:Because for me, the value of play is getting new ideas, creating solutions.
Speaker:So in coming from a, originally from a science background, your experiment is the
Speaker:thing that you use to make things happen, to prove that things do or don't exist.
Speaker:So for me, play is a series of experiments in order to create
Speaker:new ways of thinking and doing.
Speaker:Yeah, I love that idea.
Speaker:And that, that feels like it's, um, so accessible when you
Speaker:describe it as an experiment.
Speaker:Yes, yes, I need, you know, again, you and I both know this, that when we
Speaker:talked to the corporate world and the systems world about play, they tend
Speaker:to go, Ooh, no, not serious enough.
Speaker:We can't do that.
Speaker:And much as I resist being told, it's not serious enough because
Speaker:players the most serious thing at, I think the word experiment helps
Speaker:people to be comfortable with play.
Speaker:Yeah, I totally agree.
Speaker:I think it's a really great accessible way in for people who maybe don't
Speaker:feel so comfortable with it.
Speaker:tell me about a time, like time recently, when you have felt playful, what happened?
Speaker:What was, what were you doing?
Speaker:Uh, well, there's a very recent and very trivial.
Speaker:I was on a call very much like this with my delightful business
Speaker:partner, Paul Lopa in San Francisco.
Speaker:And Paul is inclined to say at the end of our conversations.
Speaker:Okay, so how are we going to end this?
Speaker:And because we're both movers, it's quite often like, but what I did
Speaker:is I looked around on my desk and I found a plain brown paper bag.
Speaker:So, this is how we ended it.
Speaker:So Kay is taking her envelope and scribbling on it with a marker.
Speaker:I drew a pair of eyes on the brown paper bag, and then it became me.
Speaker:It's been really great talking to you this evening and I can't
Speaker:wait for us to meet again.
Speaker:Bye.
Speaker:Oh, I love this.
Speaker:So Kay, is holding up a Jiffy bag, a paper Jiffy bag with eyes on
Speaker:it and using it as a hand puppet.
Speaker:I mean, looking at it, it was embodied, it was in the moment, it
Speaker:was kind of inventive a bit scrappy.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:It also came from, you know, the most important thing.
Speaker:And what I do is notice and get people to notice.
Speaker:It's simply came from, look around my space, see what I can see.
Speaker:Here's a brown paper bag.
Speaker:What can I do with a bag?
Speaker:I can put something in it.
Speaker:So it's about noticing and then experiencing.
Speaker:Noticing, touching, interacting with, and then turning it in to something.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:That's so nice.
Speaker:That sense of just inviting yourself into your environment.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And also I th th the other, there was an I've just thought
Speaker:of another great play moment.
Speaker:I have a lovely new coffee shop nearby, and I, with my friends and
Speaker:neighbors tend to sit in the windows.
Speaker:See.
Speaker:And it's usually at the time when parents are coming back from dropping the slightly
Speaker:older child at school, and they've got the very young child in the buggy.
Speaker:And so we play games with the young children walking by the
Speaker:winter, we play hide and seek or pulling faces or something.
Speaker:And it just starts our day with such a great.
Speaker:Of course, the people who are in the coffee shop thing
Speaker:were bonkers, but who cares?
Speaker:Who cares indeed?
Speaker:And that just brings such a big smile to my face.
Speaker:And I imagine a smile to the face of all those patients.
Speaker:And those kiddos
Speaker:Well, sometimes the kid, I was kind of going, who are these bunkers
Speaker:grownups, but usually they play along.
Speaker:that's so delightful.
Speaker:Thank you for sharing that.
Speaker:And so how do you feel that play and work relate to each other?
Speaker:It's a big.
Speaker:Yes, it is.
Speaker:Let me start from as sort of opposite.
Speaker:I think the separation of play and work is one of the
Speaker:fundamental errors of our society.
Speaker:So when I think of play time at school, When my son was going to school that used
Speaker:to enrage me, this should all be playtime.
Speaker:This is how children learn.
Speaker:When do we learn the most when everything is play?
Speaker:So the separation of work and play has always enriched me.
Speaker:And I think one of the reasons that I was really academically successful
Speaker:was I went to a primary school where we didn't separate work and play.
Speaker:That everything was play that I had teachers who taught me to
Speaker:add up by drawing funny faces on the board and having me count
Speaker:how many faces they were and then putting a plus and a minus sign up.
Speaker:Um, we did what we called ladling and pouring, which was pouring water from
Speaker:one job to another, to see the difference in volume between one and another.
Speaker:And I really believe that the separation of work and play.
Speaker:A big mistake.
Speaker:It really slows down our learning.
Speaker:And I also get quite crossed that culture gets bombed in with play.
Speaker:So we don't take the arts in music lessons, and art lessons
Speaker:are a bit on the police side and they really shouldn't be there.
Speaker:They're very serious play.
Speaker:huge learning in there.
Speaker:So if I don't like the separation, I don't like the hierarchy.
Speaker:It's more than separation.
Speaker:Isn't it?
Speaker:It's hierarchy work is serious and important.
Speaker:Play is something you do in your spare time.
Speaker:yes.
Speaker:Enrages me, sorry.
Speaker:And you know how easily I'm raging?
Speaker:Um, I love the rage.
Speaker:I think it's important.
Speaker:It's a fuel for change.
Speaker:And then your mind, like how do you think those things should co-exist?
Speaker:Uh, can I I'll get a bit nerdy.
Speaker:So, um, I've been studying the principles of sensory motor intentionality.
Speaker:This is how babies learn.
Speaker:So they sense something and this can be pre-birth.
Speaker:They respond to what they send.
Speaker:So that's the motor part.
Speaker:They may move towards it and move away from it to try to touch it.
Speaker:Uh, and then in response to what happens when they do that,
Speaker:they start to build up emotion.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:So from the very beginning of our existence, our play, if you
Speaker:like our interaction with random brown paper bags on our desk is
Speaker:the beginning of our learning.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:For me, the more we play, the more we learn, the more we play, the more we
Speaker:find new pathways to doing old things and we'll, we played, we get out of
Speaker:habits that may not be serving us.
Speaker:And we're inclined, I think certainly the business world to
Speaker:turn habits into processes and then it gets set in the system and we
Speaker:just assume that's the right way.
Speaker:Well, it's not always in play, allows us to find new ways.
Speaker:I love that, that kind of way out of the grooves and the ruts that stop us
Speaker:I'm happy.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And stop us doing things in a beautiful way and in a way
Speaker:that is fulfilling and life.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And thank you for the beautiful word, because it's not just about finding
Speaker:better, more efficient ways and more entertaining ways to do things.
Speaker:There is also a beauty in finding a better route, even if it's a longer route.
Speaker:Can you give us some examples of where you've seen play in action, kind of
Speaker:having, uh, you know, I'd go as far as to say a transformational effect at work?
Speaker:Um, I'm thinking of a photograph that I took at a workshop
Speaker:that I ran in Singapore.
Speaker:And it's a picture of a very tall Western man and a very small Asian woman.
Speaker:They both are using their pens, like little swords.
Speaker:They're having a sword fight in my workshop.
Speaker:And this was a workshop which was all about hierarchy and
Speaker:cross-cultural communication.
Speaker:And I don't know what the question was.
Speaker:I'd asked him, but these two finished up having a sword fight with pens
Speaker:in a meeting room in Singapore.
Speaker:And at the end of this sword fight, the guy said, oh my God, she won.
Speaker:And I said, just unpack that a bit for us.
Speaker:And he said, I always assumed because I'm tall, male and white.
Speaker:That I will win any battle, but he said she just kept
Speaker:running around the back of me.
Speaker:She kept breaking the rules.
Speaker:So she kept running her in the back of him and stabbing him in the back of a pen.
Speaker:Whereas he thought the rules were, we have to face each other as if this is a duel.
Speaker:Um, and it was just a lovely moment of his realizing that she had
Speaker:other ways of doing things that might actually be more effective.
Speaker:Because he assumed he would win.
Speaker:He wasn't being creative.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:He kept doing the same thing and she kept doing different things.
Speaker:And I think that was another learning to it as well.
Speaker:But he realized that he could actually do things differently
Speaker:if he gave himself permission.
Speaker:And by seeing her modeling something different, that kind of creates a space
Speaker:for him to give himself permission.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And the other thing I loved about it was because they were quite a formal group.
Speaker:I loved about it as well that they finished up leaning against each other
Speaker:in the room, crying with laughter.
Speaker:Oh, glorious.
Speaker:So it, yes, it, I think it started it, it began the creation of a work relationship,
Speaker:which was much more open and it really helped him to see that other ways of doing
Speaker:things, but it also helped her to see that she was allowed to do things her way.
Speaker:And just thinking about, you know, you've, you've done decades of work in
Speaker:this area and have so much experience.
Speaker:What have been the biggest surprises for you and working in a playful
Speaker:way, with the groups and the organizations that you've worked with?
Speaker:Well, I, I continue to be surprised by how many people resist the idea of play.
Speaker:Um,
Speaker:So.
Speaker:We have, I'm currently working with the National Center for
Speaker:Circus Arts and we're running.
Speaker:Corporate half days where you learn some circus skills and you co-create things
Speaker:with your colleagues and the number of people who come in at the beginning of
Speaker:the session with their heads down and their arms pinned to the size of their
Speaker:body going, I don't want to do this.
Speaker:This is just one of those excruciating things.
Speaker:So resistance to play continues to surprise me.
Speaker:And I'm also constantly surprised by who is the most resistant.
Speaker:I often get pushback from HR people saying, oh, we can't ask
Speaker:the senior people to do that.
Speaker:But actually in my experience, the really senior people are great at play because
Speaker:they have nothing to lose in a way.
Speaker:I mean, they're already up there.
Speaker:Uh, and then the really good ones, the really good leaders know that making
Speaker:themselves playful and vulnerable in front of the rest of their team really helps.
Speaker:It helps the relationships.
Speaker:We had lovely example in the last, uh, National Center for the Circus Arts
Speaker:workshop, where the leader of the team, she brought 20 people from her department.
Speaker:And there were a lot of them were really sort of fit young people and she was not.
Speaker:And she got up on the flying trapeze.
Speaker:Now we always say to people, you don't have to do everything.
Speaker:You don't have to do the flying trapeze.
Speaker:She got up there on the flying trapeze and there were tears amongst her team of.
Speaker:That she was doing this.
Speaker:Cause they will expect her to do the work too.
Speaker:That's not for me, but no, she got up there.
Speaker:The tears and the cheering were overwhelming.
Speaker:Wow.
Speaker:So yeah.
Speaker:It's when you show your, yeah, I'll go for all risks.
Speaker:I'll take brisk as a leader, a leader taking risk is a really fine thing.
Speaker:I think.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And it makes me think there's this relationship between
Speaker:play and vulnerability
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:in doing that.
Speaker:She was prepared to show her vulnerability to her team.
Speaker:And then that yields this incredible reaction from them.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And you know, she, she knows that without risk, we don't learn unless we stretch
Speaker:ourselves outside our comfort zone.
Speaker:We just keep doing the same habitual stuff.
Speaker:And yeah, it feels like there's quite a lot of misconceptions
Speaker:around the idea of playing at work.
Speaker:What do you see those as being.
Speaker:Well, I think there's the parking of play in a separate category.
Speaker:You know what?
Speaker:I work with a lot of organizations who think that play is just going
Speaker:out and getting drunk on a Friday
Speaker:or going to the racists for a day.
Speaker:And for me, Play at work should be integral to everything we do.
Speaker:It should be an ongoing game at work.
Speaker:We should be taking the opportunity to notice and improvise in every breath.
Speaker:So, yeah, the Ms.
Speaker:One of the misconceptions is, uh, we'll get some cheesy, old cow, like Kay, to
Speaker:come in and run some cheesy workshop.
Speaker:And then we'd all park it, go to the pub and we would never apply it again.
Speaker:And that's not what I do.
Speaker:And I know it's not what you do then they see what we try to do is get
Speaker:people to build, play into work.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I mean, I couldn't agree more.
Speaker:And, and how do you, I mean, how do you, how would you advise
Speaker:people to start doing that?
Speaker:What's the way in?
Speaker:There's some very simple things that I always tell people to do.
Speaker:You start with your own body?
Speaker:Like you've been in a room with me where I say to people fold
Speaker:your arms now fold your arms.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Cross your legs now cross your legs the other way.
Speaker:So do things within yourself that challenge you a little bit.
Speaker:And as soon as you ask someone to fold their arms the other way, and
Speaker:I hope people listening to this will be folding their arms the other way.
Speaker:It becomes a bit Clowney.
Speaker:Yes, exactly.
Speaker:So I'm listening as I'm watching Lucy pulling funny faces, as she
Speaker:tries to fold her arms the other way.
Speaker:So the tiniest thing becomes playful.
Speaker:And then that begins the process of an interaction with other people.
Speaker:So that start from within stop breaking your own habits, and then little things
Speaker:like, please sit in a different place.
Speaker:If you're going into a meeting, don't always sit in the same
Speaker:seat as you always sit in.
Speaker:And now most of us are working from home a lot.
Speaker:Don't sit in front of your laptop in the same place, but put it somewhere else
Speaker:and then notice what you see differently.
Speaker:Change simple things in your interactions at work.
Speaker:Find another way to the coffee machine.
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:And, you know, if you find another way to the coffee machine, you might
Speaker:walk past someone that you don't normally walk past and then find
Speaker:a silly way to interact with them.
Speaker:Or even just ask them if they'd like a coffee.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:And it's like these lifts opportunities to inject play into your day to
Speaker:day, but it feels so accessible.
Speaker:But coming back to that idea of permission, we don't always
Speaker:give ourselves permission to do.
Speaker:and I think, you know, that way, finding a different way to the
Speaker:coffee machine is just lovely.
Speaker:It's so simple.
Speaker:And allowing ourselves to be distracted and the way that children, our
Speaker:children are wonderful at distraction, they can be walking through the
Speaker:park and there is a squirrel.
Speaker:Oh, scleral great sport.
Speaker:Oh no, there's a duck.
Speaker:Oh, there's a pigeon.
Speaker:I'm going to chase the pigeon.
Speaker:Oh, here's another child I'll play with the child.
Speaker:And that constant distraction is so enlivening.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So allowing yourself to be distracted at work, it's not necessarily a bad thing.
Speaker:No, I think that's very important, but, and it's interesting that things you
Speaker:described are physical distractions, that real well distractions.
Speaker:Cause I think one of the things that gets in the way of play it
Speaker:are all the digital distractions.
Speaker:And I wonder, do you have a view on, you know, how do you balance that in
Speaker:this hybrid way that we're wearing.
Speaker:I'm hearing, uh, a lot of people talk negatively about disappearing
Speaker:down the worm hole of Googling.
Speaker:And, you know, I opened an email from so-and-so and then I looked up
Speaker:who they were and then I got into LinkedIn and then there's the members.
Speaker:It's not necessarily a bad thing.
Speaker:Um,
Speaker:If you turn it into a game.
Speaker:okay.
Speaker:I have this method that I'm using with clients about going down the wormhole,
Speaker:we're calling it the, well, you notice yourself going down the well of digital
Speaker:distraction and you think so how far down the, well am I, my halfway down?
Speaker:is it interesting enough for me to keep going down or is this
Speaker:getting a bit dull and dark now?
Speaker:Should I climb back up?
Speaker:Kind of like climb back up a different side.
Speaker:So rather than just going, I'm not going to climb down the, well, I'm going to
Speaker:find an interesting way out of the, well.
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:And how were people climbing back out of the, Well, I'm intrigued.
Speaker:Well, some of them are calling on a friend to come to the top of the well
Speaker:and put their arm down and get them out.
Speaker:So you can have your well buddy and you can go, oh my
Speaker:God, I've got down this well.
Speaker:Or, you know, reading our HR rules on dealing with diversity
Speaker:and inclusion and I'm deep down in the well, somebody help me.
Speaker:Sp you'll get someone to come along and have conversation about
Speaker:the HR policy on DNI or something.
Speaker:And that's interesting cause it's this, you know, inviting other
Speaker:people in and finding playmates.
Speaker:How does that, kind of show up in your work, kind of playing with
Speaker:others versus playing by yourself.
Speaker:that's a good question.
Speaker:Big fan of playing with others who are nothing like you.
Speaker:So what I love doing is when clients ask me to run workshops
Speaker:with two different teams.
Speaker:So I love the cross-cultural thing, whether the culture is to different
Speaker:countries or whether it's the R and D department and the marketing
Speaker:department within a company, I love doing that because they do tend
Speaker:to think that they're different.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:And then when they start to co-create and collaborate, they realize they
Speaker:have more in common than they thought.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And also they find the third way don't they, or the fourth
Speaker:or the fifth or the 10th way.
Speaker:They have their habitual way of communicating.
Speaker:They meet someone who is very different, they find another way.
Speaker:And then another way and another way.
Speaker:So there's this endless limitless way of communicating when you put people together
Speaker:with those that are different from them.
Speaker:And I imagine there were all sorts of other things that come out of those
Speaker:kind of cross-cultural cross teams.
Speaker:Playing events.
Speaker:Tell me about that.
Speaker:Some of my favorite discoveries have been in body language
Speaker:and facial habits.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:Um, particularly recently we have the zoom smile.
Speaker:Don't we, that whenever we're on a video call, we've got this
Speaker:weird little smile, which is
Speaker:I'm doing a weird little
Speaker:everyone at Lucy's doing a great smile.
Speaker:And then there is an assumption that that person is okay.
Speaker:And this happens in real life as well, where, I've had people play together,
Speaker:and they've realized that when the Japanese person in the room puts their
Speaker:hand over their face, it doesn't mean that they're laughing necessarily.
Speaker:It might mean something else.
Speaker:And you get the chance to ask them in a playful environment that you
Speaker:don't get in a business meeting.
Speaker:Um,
Speaker:I was recently on a zoom call, and I got a private message and the chat
Speaker:asking me if I could please turn down the volume on my facial expressions
Speaker:Wow.
Speaker:because we do.
Speaker:And again, listeners, Lucy is doing amazing facial expressions here.
Speaker:She's doing startled squirrel being chased by a child in the park.
Speaker:I didn't know that was in my range.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:We make assumptions, don't we, about what people's expressions mean.
Speaker:And sometimes there's somethings could be wrong.
Speaker:And often when we play together, we realize those assumptions are
Speaker:wrong because we have this very childlike way of connecting.
Speaker:Yeah, I love that.
Speaker:And I think it was Plato who said, you can learn more about someone in an hour
Speaker:of play than in a year of conversation.
Speaker:so, you know, you said you're surprised at how resistant people are still to play.
Speaker:What do you think needs to be in place for people to feel like they can play at work?
Speaker:Uh a couple of things come to mind.
Speaker:one of course is modeling from above.
Speaker:That playful leaders really important.
Speaker:And especially when those leaders, as they tend to be are from, you
Speaker:know, societies, upper echelons, it's really very important, but it's also
Speaker:important that the play that they demonstrate is not attention grabbing.
Speaker:So I would draw a line between a leader being a clown and a
Speaker:leader, being a team player
Speaker:Um,
Speaker:mentioning no names, but there are some fairly prominent leaders as
Speaker:clowns in our world at the moment.
Speaker:And that's attention grabbing.
Speaker:That's not playing.
Speaker:yeah.
Speaker:So leaders need to show that they are prepared to play with others and
Speaker:simple things like taking a juggling thought into the office and throwing it.
Speaker:And we need measurement don't we?
Speaker:And I used to be quite resistant to clients saying, well, we need to measure
Speaker:the impact of play, but in fact, if you need to measure it, measure it,
Speaker:ask people how they feel when you introduce more play into the world.
Speaker:And then your experience, how do people feel?
Speaker:they feel, Hmm.
Speaker:It's a dropping of the shoulders.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:It's I don't have to perform.
Speaker:There's a big difference between performing play.
Speaker:If I'm allowed to play the pressures and always on me to perform.
Speaker:So we've noticed that yes, people feel less pressured, funnily enough, they
Speaker:feel more productive because they find different ways of finding solutions
Speaker:and they also find it easier to ask for help.
Speaker:So they don't feel that they have to do everything alone.
Speaker:And why do you think that is?
Speaker:Where does that come from?
Speaker:this, this is why, I like to differentiate between play and games.
Speaker:So a lot of consultants like us don't actually play.
Speaker:They played games.
Speaker:Um,
Speaker:And games are competitive.
Speaker:They're not collaborative.
Speaker:So I don't really approve, well, I mean, it's fine.
Speaker:If you want to go out and play football, that's absolutely fine, but
Speaker:that's not the kind of play I mean.
Speaker:The kind of play I mean is, you know, finding a new way from my
Speaker:desk to the coffee machine, without my feet touching the ground.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I'm going to have to ask my colleagues for help.
Speaker:So if we can introduce playful exercises that get colleagues to
Speaker:collaborate rather than compete,
Speaker:that's where the I can ask for help comes from.
Speaker:And it sounds like there's an invitation in there.
Speaker:It's kind of an invitational way of working together.
Speaker:yes.
Speaker:And make the invitation visible.
Speaker:Why not just scribble on a piece of paper?
Speaker:Um, Hey, can you get from here to the coffee machine without
Speaker:your feet touching the ground?
Speaker:There's no obligation.
Speaker:It's not, you may not put your leader, everyone.
Speaker:Lucy's now looking around her to see if she can find a way to get to her coffee.
Speaker:Which is all the way downstairs.
Speaker:So it's going to be a challenge, but I'm definitely going to
Speaker:do this with my fun later.
Speaker:Okay, so in terms of the conditions, it's kind of modeling, um, creating
Speaker:space for that, starting with our own bodies, have you, um, Got any advice for
Speaker:people listening about where to start?
Speaker:You know, if they're working in an organization that isn't necessarily
Speaker:that playful, where would you begin?
Speaker:Always begin with an ally is, is my solution.
Speaker:You know, as the kid that the skinny nerdy kid in the playground, I was
Speaker:usually the one standing on the edge.
Speaker:But then there would be another skinny nerdy kid or another
Speaker:one who was out of place.
Speaker:Get the other skinny nerdy kid to start playing with you.
Speaker:And then people will notice.
Speaker:I think simply things like my, putting my hand inside a brown
Speaker:envelope and showing eyes on it.
Speaker:You know, if I were to sit in the office, pretending to talk to a
Speaker:brown envelope with eyes on it, that would get people's attention.
Speaker:And perhaps they might start a puppet show
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:in which we will discuss how we are getting to get the packing
Speaker:department to be more efficient.
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:A puppet packing department.
Speaker:So start small basically with small little experiments that get people noticing.
Speaker:your tribe, play in your tribe in order to find solutions to problems,
Speaker:make sure that others notice.
Speaker:And we come back to the noticing, which feels like such
Speaker:an important part of all that.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And people do notice people at work who are enjoying themselves and
Speaker:it cause habitual body language and facial expressions, facial
Speaker:expression at work is not playful.
Speaker:if you start to feel good, it'll show in your body and your face
Speaker:and other people will start to feel good and they'll start to do it.
Speaker:And you will start a playful movement.
Speaker:Oh, that sounds so good.
Speaker:And, and the sense of embodiment feels so important, like starting with your own
Speaker:Yes,
Speaker:and what ripples out from there.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:If you go to work, even if it's just sit down at your laptop, if you sit
Speaker:down at your laptop with your play body on and not your work body, then
Speaker:that sets you up for a playful day.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And how would you describe the play body?
Speaker:Well, um, everyone has a different play body, but you know, I think you've
Speaker:done it that Paul and I do so much at coaching and we get people to, first of
Speaker:all, make the body shape that represents them having the most shit time at work.
Speaker:So, yes, usually it's hunched over, it's closed up it's it's tense.
Speaker:So they do that, and then we say, make the body shape or the movement of you having
Speaker:your best possible time, anywhere at all in the world, not necessarily at work.
Speaker:So they feel this kind of arms out, grinning looking outwards, and then
Speaker:you say, okay, choreograph your way from grumpy Workboard body.
Speaker:Into exuberant, I'm having a great time body and then settle on somewhere.
Speaker:You might want, not want to sit at your desk today.
Speaker:Completely crazy exuberant body, but you might be somewhere along that road.
Speaker:It might just be about lifting your head and noticing what's
Speaker:going on in your peripheral vision.
Speaker:But if you set yourself the worst and the best, and then you find yourself
Speaker:a place which is towards the best and adopt that for the beginning of
Speaker:your day, that's one way to start.
Speaker:That sounds brilliant.
Speaker:And I mean, I was going to ask you a question about, have you got a playful
Speaker:practice that you could share with our listeners to take it to their day stay?
Speaker:But I feel like we've been inundated with lovely playful practices.
Speaker:I wonder if you have any others you'd like to.
Speaker:Well I really recommend that everyone have juggling thuds in the workplace.
Speaker:So jogging balls and randomly throw one at somebody cause they don't hurt.
Speaker:If they hit you that soft.
Speaker:Randomly throwing a juggling thought around the place is great.
Speaker:If you're on a zoom call, pretend to be throwing a daunting thought at someone.
Speaker:That's hilarious, especially if it's a big zoom call and nobody knows
Speaker:which direction it's going in because everyone's in different places.
Speaker:There's something I'd like to restate is pleased.
Speaker:Let's not separate.
Speaker:Playtime.
Speaker:Playtime is integral to creative working.
Speaker:It's it's what creative problem solving and collaboration start with you.
Speaker:Watch children, very tiny children.
Speaker:They co-create and collaborate beautifully.
Speaker:You don't have to call it play time.
Speaker:Just call it time.
Speaker:Well, thank you so much, Kate.
Speaker:It's been amazing to talk to you and I feel like there's just a whole.
Speaker:Well, for the amazing practical ideas that people can take into their day to day.
Speaker:So it's been a complete delight to talk to you.
Speaker:Well, likewise.
Speaker:And isn't it fun?
Speaker:How talking about play makes a smile.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I feel like I'm, my cheeks are
Speaker:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker:You can't help, but smile.
Speaker:If you're talking about play
Speaker:So Lucy, how did your conversation with Kay go?
Speaker:What, what came up for you?
Speaker:Oh, it was so nice.
Speaker:I mean, she has just got so many ideas for how we can playfully change our day.
Speaker:So I loved it.
Speaker:You know, the tiny micro changes we can make, to approach our day
Speaker:differently and feel more playful with the everyday things that we do.
Speaker:Absolutely the small, the small sort of challenges you can set
Speaker:yourself around the coffee machine.
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:Something that feels very banal very everyday, as you say.
Speaker:And the idea of when, when I get there, what's, uh, a small, slightly
Speaker:different interaction I can have with someone that feels a little bit playful?
Speaker:They just felt like really lovely micro nuggets into your day, that you
Speaker:can just set a little challenge to yourself, to, to experiment with, which
Speaker:is what play for her is all about.
Speaker:And I, you know, like showing up to your computer playfully.
Speaker:I love that idea.
Speaker:I also really want, to get, what did she call it?
Speaker:The juggling
Speaker:juggling feds.
Speaker:Thuds, that's it.
Speaker:And she's like, they didn't hurt just three, one itself and your head
Speaker:and be like, Hey, I sadly don't have anyone here in my little makeshift
Speaker:recording studio to do that with, but I was, I was craving that
Speaker:opportunity, which is talking about it.
Speaker:Yeah, it was so nice.
Speaker:I also, um, I really liked her point at the beginning around The, amazing kind
Speaker:of power of the outsider to notice.
Speaker:The, witch of noticing.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And she knows this for a living and then sort of shares what she's noticing.
Speaker:And how she can turn up to any kind of scenario.
Speaker:And she doesn't bring all of the context of that scenario.
Speaker:She can just come and notice as a, as a kind of pure form of activity.
Speaker:And I, I love that role of the outsider and just being free to
Speaker:notice without any of the baggage.
Speaker:And also, experimentation and experimenting with what's around us
Speaker:as a way of creating new thoughts and new behaviors and new possibilities.
Speaker:And that language, the language of experimentation being
Speaker:quite accessible for people.
Speaker:So maybe those who feel a bit more skeptical, actually
Speaker:an experiment is quite safe.
Speaker:in a way
Speaker:It's sort of freedom within structure.
Speaker:Experimentation still has that level of uncertainty, but it feels like a
Speaker:sort of safe, familiar uncertainty, which, um, which for some people
Speaker:play, doesn't feel like that doesn't feel like it's got parameters around
Speaker:it and a sense of familiarity.
Speaker:So I really relate that use of, of experiments as a way, as you say, of
Speaker:being more accessible to those who might be a little reticent or a bit
Speaker:unsure about engaging in these ideas.
Speaker:I thought the way she talked about the separation of work and play as being
Speaker:the, one of the fundamental areas of our society was so true and you know how that
Speaker:starts in school and carries on through life and into work and how inhibiting.
Speaker:Um, absolutely.
Speaker:I think she really pulled out a lot of sort of myths that we
Speaker:kind of in mainstream Western society hold about play.
Speaker:When she's talking about leaders as clowns, and we do have some leaders
Speaker:who kind of really lean into the idea of the attention grabbing clown and
Speaker:that's not necessarily a playful leader.
Speaker:And I really liked that challenging this notion of quite a one dimensional
Speaker:view of play that I think a lot of us still hold, which is a playful
Speaker:person or people who don't, you know, they look like they're playing the
Speaker:prankster, they're joking around.
Speaker:They're being outwardly playful and foolish to an extent.
Speaker:And, know, that is play for some people and that's great, but that's not
Speaker:the only way that play can manifest.
Speaker:And I really liked that she was saying, you know, that that's not the
Speaker:only way we should be thinking about kind of playfulness and leadership.
Speaker:That's not the only way it looks.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I'm the importance of modeling different ways.
Speaker:So I love the example she gave of the leader who decided to brave the
Speaker:flying trapeze and the vulnerability that was integral to that.
Speaker:And you know, how as leaders can we share up on rebel Lexi in order to
Speaker:create space for others to do the same?
Speaker:When she was talking about that exact story about the flying trapeze,, it
Speaker:really hit me the kind of outsized impact of a leader taking a risk like that in
Speaker:front of their colleagues, and I think she really brought alive the fear and
Speaker:resistance and barriers to engaging in play and how we can often assume some
Speaker:people are going to be up for it and some aren't and we always count them out of it.
Speaker:She was talking about, you know, some, some gatekeepers saying
Speaker:all the senior people in this team, they weren't get engaged.
Speaker:You know, they're not gonna enjoy this, but where as actually,
Speaker:they can really engage with it and have that outsized impact
Speaker:I love the idea that enjoying yourself at work is infectious.
Speaker:I just like in having fun and enjoying yourself and playing, you know, other
Speaker:people feel like they can do the same and it just has this ripple effect.
Speaker:And that sense that we've heard in some other episodes, of making these
Speaker:offers and putting yourself out there, as a way of creating a movement.
Speaker:I've really heard a theme in what she was saying around play as a real
Speaker:powerful connector when she was talking about seeking out opportunities to
Speaker:play with people who are kind of outside of our habitual circles.
Speaker:So it might be people from different cultures, different backgrounds,
Speaker:where it might be even just people within the same organization, but
Speaker:from different departments that you might not be working with day to day.
Speaker:And kind of the way that playing together can really transcend and cut through
Speaker:differences that might keep those people apart, that's what certainly we've seen in
Speaker:our work is that people find connections that were previously kind of invisible,
Speaker:and it just really accelerates the relationship to a point of much more kind
Speaker:of authentic connection and meaning than there was without that sense of place.
Speaker:I loved, loved that story of.
Speaker:Finding people who are outside of your, of your day-to-day circle and kind of
Speaker:playing with them, if they're up for it.
Speaker:And I also really liked her invitation to allow ourselves to be distracted.
Speaker:Like children are, to allow ourselves to play in our environment and follow the
Speaker:different threads and see where they lead.
Speaker:That felt really juicy to me.
Speaker:Thank you so much for listening today.
Speaker:If you enjoyed this episode, please do rate and review as it really
Speaker:helps us to reach other listeners.
Speaker:We're releasing episodes every two weeks, so do you hit Subscribe
Speaker:to ensure you don't miss out on more playful inspiration.
Speaker:Don't forget, you can find us at www.whyplayworks.com or
Speaker:wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker:And if you'd like to join our growing community of people United by the idea
Speaker:of at work, you can sign up to the Playworks Collective on the home page.
Speaker:If you have any ideas for future episodes topics you'd like to hear
Speaker:about guest suggestions or questions about the work we do with organizations,
Speaker:we would love to hear from you.
Speaker:Your feedback really matters to us.
Speaker:So please drop us a line at hello@whyplayworks.com.
Speaker:We'll be back in a fortnight with a brand new guest, and
