Episode 12

full
Published on:

15th May 2023

Play isn’t an activity, it’s an attitude

Start a conversation with, “do you think a hotdog is a sandwich?” and see the playful reaction. 

Catherine Price is an advocate of bringing people together in a playful manner whether it’s a conversation with a stranger, a dinner party, at work or even Zoom.

Catherine helps people scroll less, live more, and have fun. 

She is a science journalist, speaker, teacher, consultant, and the author of several. 

Catherine is also the founder of ScreenLifeBalance.com, a resource hub dedicated to helping people create more intentional relationships with technology and reconnect with what really matters to them in life. 

Things to consider

  • Create deeper and engaging conversations with people by asking more interesting openers
  • Bantering with people is a form of play
  • There's often an assumption that only certain activities qualify as play.
  • Play and fun aren’t an activity they are an attitude or a feeling
  • Fun and playfulness actually bring us closer together  as human beings.
  • If you do have to use willpower to keep doing some activity that's being marketed to you as play, then it's not play anymore.
  • Fun is any moment when three states coincide; playfulness, and connection and flow. This can definitely happen at work. Even on Zoom!
  • Rules and structure can give people permission to be playful in an unexpected context.

Links

Get in touch!

Make Work Play

Playfilled

Transcript
Tzuki Stewart:

Hello.

Tzuki Stewart:

Welcome to the show.

Tzuki Stewart:

I'm Zuki Stewart from Playfield, A startup helping organizations to enable

Tzuki Stewart:

everyone to rediscover their creativity through playful wonder and serendipity

Tzuki Stewart:

And I'm Lucy Taylor from Make Work Play an organization on a

Tzuki Stewart:

mission to use the power of play to unlock potential and possibility.

Tzuki Stewart:

Together we are.

Tzuki Stewart:

Why Play Works, the podcast that speaks to people radically reshaping work as play.

Lucy Taylor:

Today I'm speaking with Catherine Price, an award-winning

Lucy Taylor:

science writer, speaker, workshop leader, consultant, and the author

Lucy Taylor:

of books, including The Power of Fun, how to Feel Alive Again, and

Lucy Taylor:

How to Break Up With Your Phone, the 30 Day Plan to take back your life.

Tzuki Stewart:

On a mission to help people scroll less, live more, and have fun.

Tzuki Stewart:

Catherine is also the founder of screen life balance.com, a resource hub dedicated

Tzuki Stewart:

to helping people create more intense.

Tzuki Stewart:

Relationships with technology and reconnect with what really

Tzuki Stewart:

matters to them in life.

Tzuki Stewart:

Kevin Ru of the New York Times once referred to Catherine

Tzuki Stewart:

as the Mary Condo of Brains.

Lucy Taylor:

as a speaker, she has presented in their workshops for

Lucy Taylor:

companies and organizations including Ted.

Lucy Taylor:

South by Southwest hired Intel Penguin, random House, Salesforce,

Lucy Taylor:

and HubSpot, among many others.

Lucy Taylor:

Catherine's Ted Talk on Fun was the second most viewed Ted talk for all of

Lucy Taylor:

2022, and in what she describes as a life highlight, she once led a virtual workshop

Lucy Taylor:

on Joy with the mighty Oprah Winfrey.

Tzuki Stewart:

You can find Catherine's journalistic work in a number of

Tzuki Stewart:

publications, including the Best American Science writing, the New York Times,

Tzuki Stewart:

and the Washington Post Magazine.

Tzuki Stewart:

She's also the host of Advances in Care, a podcast featuring

Tzuki Stewart:

cutting edge work being done by the doctors at New York Presbyterian.

Lucy Taylor:

podcast.

Lucy Taylor:

Today we talk about simple ways to spark playful curiosity, how to

Lucy Taylor:

seek out playmates, and the power of asking different questions.

Tzuki Stewart:

So Catherine, tell me about what does the word play you?

Catherine Price:

I think play is actually a really hard word to define, especially

Catherine Price:

for adults because it feels so foreign.

Catherine Price:

But when I think of the word play, I think what comes to mind is a feeling

Catherine Price:

of freedom and a feeling of not caring too much about the outcome of things.

Catherine Price:

So the attempt.

Catherine Price:

Just to let go of perfectionism.

Catherine Price:

I think it's very much tied in with fun, but this feeling really of not

Catherine Price:

being self-conscious, letting yourself be your true self and doing things

Catherine Price:

just for the sake of doing them.

Catherine Price:

Um, that's I think what what comes up for me.

Catherine Price:

I think it's so important.

Catherine Price:

I think play is absolutely essential for people of all ages.

Catherine Price:

And one thing I've been thinking a lot.

Catherine Price:

To myself, is that in terms of relationships and friendships, the

Catherine Price:

ones that I enjoy the most are the ones that have some element of play in them.

Catherine Price:

You know, for me, like bantering is a form of play and if someone can't banter

Catherine Price:

with me, then it's gonna be difficult for me to be friends with them, cuz

Catherine Price:

that I think is a main way that I play.

Tzuki Stewart:

And I love

Tzuki Stewart:

I craving.

Tzuki Stewart:

Something to interactions.

Tzuki Stewart:

I, I'm, I would love that injection of, of play as you talk about.

Tzuki Stewart:

the, interplay, not a given it's not a interaction.

Catherine Price:

No, and I think it's so much more enjoyable when that happens.

Catherine Price:

I don't know if you've read The Art of Gathering by Priya Parker

Tzuki Stewart:

It last January life actually.

Tzuki Stewart:

together and I've never felt so seen by my friend who

Catherine Price:

Yes.

Catherine Price:

Well, I mentioned that book cuz Priya Parker is an expert, as you

Catherine Price:

know, in the art of, well, the art of Gathering and bringing people together.

Catherine Price:

And she talks a lot about.

Catherine Price:

How the best, I think the quote is like, the best gatherings are those, the, the

Catherine Price:

gatherings that Sparkle and Flourish, as she says, are the ones that have

Catherine Price:

some kind of intentionality in them.

Catherine Price:

That the host actually took the time to think, how am I gonna

Catherine Price:

make guests feel comfortable?

Catherine Price:

And one of the way, and, and to interact with each other in a way that doesn't

Catherine Price:

just feel like normal small talk or you kind of know where the conversation's

Catherine Price:

going from the moment it begins, and you're kind of both enduring it.

Catherine Price:

And she talks about the importance of having things to

Catherine Price:

talk about and how to inject.

Catherine Price:

Is what I've heard described as playful curiosity into a social gathering.

Catherine Price:

So that's something I've actually tried to do myself when we've hosted gatherings

Catherine Price:

ever since I read that book, is to give people, I think of it as like almost

Catherine Price:

like a handhold for a conversation.

Catherine Price:

Like it's a rock climbing wall.

Catherine Price:

Like something to hang off of or something to bounce, right?

Catherine Price:

Like to bounce off of.

Catherine Price:

Because there's certain people you interact with where it's kind of like a

Catherine Price:

conversational brick wall, you know, where you say something and then it just dies.

Catherine Price:

And I find that to be so exhausting and always think it's like my fault.

Catherine Price:

But I think it's that we need to actually get in the practice

Catherine Price:

of asking interesting questions.

Catherine Price:

All this is to say that one thing that we've started, my husband and I

Catherine Price:

experimenting with is when we do host parties, like giving people an icebreaking

Catherine Price:

question to ask, even if it's so.

Catherine Price:

Really simple.

Catherine Price:

Like we have a fall party that we host every year in this

Catherine Price:

community garden near our house.

Catherine Price:

And so I normally have people wear name tags, which might seem, I don't know,

Catherine Price:

some people are like, uh, name tags.

Catherine Price:

But I'm like, you know what?

Catherine Price:

We don't see everyone that frequently and they don't know each other.

Catherine Price:

And it actually makes it easier.

Catherine Price:

But then I'll also have people put something on the name tag that's

Catherine Price:

like, for example, tell me what's your favorite thing about fall?

Catherine Price:

And then people will write their name and this little thing that's

Catherine Price:

their favorite thing about fall.

Catherine Price:

And just that enables people to have a conversation that.

Catherine Price:

Beyond the normal kind of, oh, how do you know the hosts?

Catherine Price:

How long have you lived in the city?

Catherine Price:

Oh, you've got kids?

Catherine Price:

How old are they?

Catherine Price:

Oh, where do they go to school?

Catherine Price:

Oh, I'm like, oh my God, shoot me.

Catherine Price:

Like, it's just so boring.

Catherine Price:

But actually I've been thinking a lot about playful curiosity and,

Catherine Price:

and how to ask those questions.

Catherine Price:

Um, because of this fun intervention project I've been doing, which

Catherine Price:

I could tell you more about.

Catherine Price:

But one of the things that I did during these workshops, Uh, this

Catherine Price:

group that I've been working with that they prompted us to do is to come up

Catherine Price:

with playful conversation starters.

Catherine Price:

All of this is to say that I've started a lot of conversations recently

Catherine Price:

by asking people if they think a hotdog is a sandwich and Exactly.

Catherine Price:

It's a very good litmus test also for who you could be friends with.

Catherine Price:

Cuz if they don't have the reaction you just had, it's probably not gonna work.

Catherine Price:

But it's like, or there was one that was like, do you think that your cat would

Catherine Price:

kill you in your sleep If it could, right.

Tzuki Stewart:

We were just talking about Bria Parker and, you know,

Tzuki Stewart:

posing amazing big questions.

Tzuki Stewart:

Then you're like, it's a hotdog or sandwich.

Tzuki Stewart:

And I was like, that's what I'm talking about.

Tzuki Stewart:

Like that we went, we went straight there.

Tzuki Stewart:

But what a great, oh, it's amazing to meet another fan of book, which I

Tzuki Stewart:

found and it's just such a timely I love the example of your full party.

Tzuki Stewart:

Um, you know, what holds me back?

Tzuki Stewart:

I'm anxious that if I were to host a, a, you know, dinner, a party, go out there

Tzuki Stewart:

on a bit of a limit, say, you know what?

Tzuki Stewart:

Actually, I'm gonna throw out some some playful questions, or whatever

Tzuki Stewart:

it is, and just see where it goes.

Tzuki Stewart:

And fear that people are just not gonna be down for party What?

Tzuki Stewart:

What's been your, I mean, maybe that's people I know, but, but

Tzuki Stewart:

what's been your experience?

Tzuki Stewart:

The people, and I know Preeth was like, wow, your terms?

Tzuki Stewart:

Do you find in Hi, are people willing to engage in that?

Tzuki Stewart:

Does it free up the experience

Catherine Price:

I think it, you know, probably depends on the person,

Catherine Price:

but for the most part, I think most people are really relieved when you

Catherine Price:

give them something to talk about or again, when you throw them, it's like

Catherine Price:

pitching a, throwing a pitch in a game of softball or something, like you're

Catherine Price:

giving them something to respond to.

Catherine Price:

and it takes the pressure off and people like answering questions, especially if

Catherine Price:

it's about themselves, . So I actually think for most people it feels like

Catherine Price:

a gift and then you actually then have something fun to talk about and

Catherine Price:

just go in a different direction.

Catherine Price:

But it doesn't need to be as overtly silly as those two questions I just posed.

Catherine Price:

There was actually someone who came up to me recently and said, what?

Catherine Price:

What have you been thinking about recently?

Catherine Price:

Which I was like, Ooh, this person was a professor, so I would think

Catherine Price:

he's in a theater kind of person.

Catherine Price:

But I was like, well, that's really interesting.

Catherine Price:

And I was like, I've been thinking a lot about connection recently.

Catherine Price:

That's what I've been thinking about.

Catherine Price:

And we immediately, Transcended just this, how have you been?

Catherine Price:

You know, as someone I don't know that well, or it's just acquaintances,

Catherine Price:

but it immediately brought the conversation to this deeper, more

Catherine Price:

enjoyable, thought provoking level.

Catherine Price:

So I think you gotta read the situation, obviously, but in many cases people

Catherine Price:

are actually really relieved when you give them something to talk about.

Tzuki Stewart:

that, believe I can't be the person Oh, I'm

Tzuki Stewart:

so glad to have art gathering

Catherine Price:

Oh no.

Catherine Price:

I was also just gonna say, um, I think another way to get people to connect

Catherine Price:

in that way, in a more playful way is to have experiences with each other.

Catherine Price:

So even if it's getting people to help with some aspect of, you

Catherine Price:

know, making dinner, if you're having a dinner party or just.

Catherine Price:

Doing something together in general.

Catherine Price:

You know, so often companies in particular will just have happy hours, which is

Catherine Price:

like such a weird thing cuz it's just inviting people to spend more time at

Catherine Price:

work, like drinking together, which is not really a great idea in many ways.

Catherine Price:

Instead of actually having a shared experience because when people

Catherine Price:

are doing something or learning something together, then they, they

Catherine Price:

interact in a totally different way.

Catherine Price:

I think that's why escape rooms were so popular, at least before the.

Tzuki Stewart:

I love it when Like or used to feel like experts environment or

Tzuki Stewart:

freeing like, whoa, I it's not quite what you just said around learning book around.

Tzuki Stewart:

Um, she

Catherine Price:

Mm-hmm.

Tzuki Stewart:

and no one serves act just servitude generosity

Tzuki Stewart:

What would they I dunno.

Tzuki Stewart:

I just love that small act and I think that's just a small example of to have,

Catherine Price:

Well, that I've forgotten that detail in her book.

Catherine Price:

But yeah, that actually reminds me of something that you just touched on, which

Catherine Price:

is like feeling seen when you actually read Priya Parker's book, because I think

Catherine Price:

that that fundamentally is what we all want is to be seen and that actually.

Catherine Price:

These little small acts of caring or playfulness or just being actually

Catherine Price:

inquisitive about a person, even if it's their thoughts on whether a hotdog

Catherine Price:

is the sandwich, but something where people actually feel appreciated and

Catherine Price:

engaged, that's really quite meaningful.

Catherine Price:

I think that's one of the biggest powers of play and fun, is actually

Catherine Price:

helping us connect as human beings and feel like someone else cares.

Tzuki Stewart:

around kind zoom, fast that's how I

Catherine Price:

And it was so funny in that context cuz it, it happened

Catherine Price:

when I was at a concert of my guitar.

Catherine Price:

My guitar teacher had a show and we were at this show together and he

Catherine Price:

turns and asked me that question.

Catherine Price:

I said, I've been thinking a lot about connection.

Catherine Price:

And within like 30 seconds we discovered that we both really love swing dancing.

Catherine Price:

which I never would've come up if it was like, how was your day?

Catherine Price:

And then had a really fun moment where it was like, wait a second, why don't we

Catherine Price:

do like, why don't we dance to this song?

Catherine Price:

And then it was like, you know, this person I don't know well at all.

Catherine Price:

And it was just a really, really nice moment of connection that came from

Catherine Price:

that different question that he asked.

Catherine Price:

So I think you just never know where it might lead, but it's

Catherine Price:

certainly gonna lead to somewhere more interesting than typical small.

Tzuki Stewart:

talked about what play and I'm wondering Your own you

Tzuki Stewart:

like to I don't do you recognize

Catherine Price:

I see both.

Catherine Price:

I was really shy and introverted as a child, so some of the ways I

Catherine Price:

play now are not like right now.

Catherine Price:

I would say one of my.

Catherine Price:

Forms of play is just bantering with people and, um, having

Catherine Price:

playful conversations.

Catherine Price:

And so when I was a kid, that was not what I was doing cause

Catherine Price:

I wouldn't talk to anybody

Catherine Price:

So that's changed.

Catherine Price:

But I would also say though, that physical movement has been a form of play for me

Catherine Price:

and that has been true for my whole life.

Catherine Price:

Just, you know, love me to do cartwheels and just use my body like dancing.

Catherine Price:

Um, so that's been pretty consistent.

Catherine Price:

And then right now, probably my biggest form of play that doesn't involve.

Catherine Price:

Conversation is through music, um, which is related to childhood in the sense that

Catherine Price:

I learned, started learning how to play the piano when I was around five or six.

Catherine Price:

But actually it's very interesting for me to reflect that it wasn't really

Catherine Price:

a form of play in the way that it is now for me as a child, because I was

Catherine Price:

always doing it alone, not for recitals or anything, like, there wasn't like a

Catherine Price:

purpose behind learning music for me.

Catherine Price:

It was for the sake of learning it.

Catherine Price:

So there was that aspect of, I guess, an inherent bit of playfulness there,

Catherine Price:

but, When I started actually getting together with friends and playing music

Catherine Price:

together, the experience was totally different from playing the music alone.

Catherine Price:

And that dynamic and that feeling of creating music with other people is one

Catherine Price:

of my most treasured forms of play now.

Catherine Price:

But it switches really quickly if there's a goal to it, which

Catherine Price:

I've been thinking a lot about.

Catherine Price:

So if you put a goal to it, then it's not as playful and

Catherine Price:

it's not as much fun for me.

Catherine Price:

It has to have this element.

Catherine Price:

Doing it for the sake of that.

Tzuki Stewart:

And lots of laughter, look like

Catherine Price:

Yeah, I think that that definitely you can bring

Catherine Price:

playfulness to anything though, and I think that's something that we as

Catherine Price:

adults often forget too, is that you think play has to be separate from

Catherine Price:

work or that play doesn't have a space at work that's almost inappropriate

Catherine Price:

or irresponsible to be playful.

Catherine Price:

Also, adults just tend to assume that.

Catherine Price:

You know, when I talk about fun and I talk about playfulness, people

Catherine Price:

tense up cuz they're like, no, I'm a responsible, serious adult.

Catherine Price:

I, I'm, you know, play it for kids and it often, There's often an assumption

Catherine Price:

that only certain activities qualify as play, that the play is in the activity.

Catherine Price:

And I think the same thing is true for fun.

Catherine Price:

People think it's an activity that's fun, but really both of those things

Catherine Price:

are the attitude and the feeling.

Catherine Price:

They result from certain things and both play.

Catherine Price:

I, I believe that playfulness is a component of fun, but I think that

Catherine Price:

both fun and playfulness actually bring us together closer as human beings.

Catherine Price:

And anytime you do that, you're.

Catherine Price:

More efficient at whatever you're doing, you're also gonna enjoy yourself more.

Catherine Price:

I mean, it just, everything kind of builds on itself.

Catherine Price:

It leads in a very positive direction.

Catherine Price:

I was also gonna say in terms of, well, one way I think that play can

Catherine Price:

really help us is that if you can convince your brain that it's playing,

Catherine Price:

it's gonna stick with things longer.

Catherine Price:

Which is a kind of a separate subject if you want to talk

Catherine Price:

about fun and, and play at work.

Catherine Price:

But it's really interesting to me that when you're playing, one of

Catherine Price:

the characteristics I feel about play is you don't wanna stop.

Catherine Price:

It's a activity that is very intrinsically motivating.

Catherine Price:

You don't have to use willpower to keep playing.

Catherine Price:

If you do have to use willpower to keep doing some activity

Catherine Price:

that's being marketed to you as play, then it's not play anymore.

Catherine Price:

, you know?

Catherine Price:

So if you can tap into the feeling of play when you're doing so, Work related.

Catherine Price:

Well, that's wonderful.

Catherine Price:

I mean, there have been, I remember looking up a study where they were

Catherine Price:

measuring how long kids were willing to wait for something, and in the control

Catherine Price:

group, they were just told to wait.

Catherine Price:

And then they had another group where they were told to pretend

Catherine Price:

that they were guards at a, I don't know where, if it was a factory or

Catherine Price:

a prison, what they were guarding.

Catherine Price:

They were guarding something.

Catherine Price:

But the idea being it was a game and those kids were able to wait for longer and,

Catherine Price:

you know, push off delayed gratification because it was in the framework of a game.

Tzuki Stewart:

So you just said about how, to have as, as Work and And

Tzuki Stewart:

But do you in, in your amazing book, the Power of Fun, you talk about

Tzuki Stewart:

fun flow, and possible to have true

Catherine Price:

I think it's definitely possible to have true fun at work and

Catherine Price:

really in nearly any context because it's very much the attitude you bring

Catherine Price:

to it and what you're, what feelings you're kind of pulling out or trying to.

Catherine Price:

highlights.

Catherine Price:

So one of the things I like about defining true fun is this confluence of playfulness

Catherine Price:

and connection and flow is that it makes it actually very mundane in a way.

Catherine Price:

I think one misperception people have about fun in particular is

Catherine Price:

that it only can happen if you're outside of your normal life.

Catherine Price:

Like you go on vacation to have fun.

Catherine Price:

You go out to dinner with friends to have fun.

Catherine Price:

You don't have fun at work.

Catherine Price:

But if you start to recognize that.

Catherine Price:

Fun is any moment when these three states coincide playfulness and connection and

Catherine Price:

flow, you might start to notice you're having little micro moments of that

Catherine Price:

throughout your everyday life already.

Catherine Price:

I mean, even in the passing conversation you have with someone

Catherine Price:

on the street, like you can have a moment of playful connected flow and

Catherine Price:

therefore that was a moment of fun.

Catherine Price:

And I recently witnessed how you can actually have fun on a work

Catherine Price:

Zoom call, believe it or not, guys.

Catherine Price:

Um, Yes.

Catherine Price:

So to back up, I have gotten into the habit slash tradition of doing a February

Catherine Price:

fun intervention for people in my screen life balance community, which by the way,

Catherine Price:

anyone can be a part of just sign up for my newsletter and you'll get the invites.

Catherine Price:

But the first year I did kind of just like interviews with authors whom I admired

Catherine Price:

whose work had something to do with fun.

Catherine Price:

But this year I actually teamed up with this group Momentum Labs,

Catherine Price:

and we led these live workshops about the three elements of.

Catherine Price:

Because Fundamental Labs is specifically dedicated to using purposeful play

Catherine Price:

as they talk about it, to build connection and collaboration and

Catherine Price:

productivity and creativity at work.

Catherine Price:

And it was amazing to see that it was possible over the course

Catherine Price:

of a 60 minute Zoom call to start with just a group of strangers.

Catherine Price:

And through various exercises and games that we went through together

Catherine Price:

to end up in a situation where by the end of the call, people were laughing.

Catherine Price:

They were talking about how much affection they had for their breakout room partner.

Catherine Price:

By the end of the four week fund intervention, we actually had one

Catherine Price:

woman who'd been on these calls for all four of the weeks, tell us

Catherine Price:

that she had been inspired by these calls to actually share her love

Catherine Price:

of baking with her work colleagues.

Catherine Price:

And she had been bringing in these baked goods to her office and she

Catherine Price:

said not only had that led to.

Catherine Price:

Playful conversations with her colleagues, but then she said one of her

Catherine Price:

colleagues had actually been inspired.

Catherine Price:

I don't really remember why the connection was what it was, but anyway,

Catherine Price:

this guy painted her a painting.

Catherine Price:

Because she had been baking things and she holds up this like beautiful painting that

Catherine Price:

her coworker had given her, um, just as a result of these playful interactions and,

Catherine Price:

and the fact that she was prioritizing play and fun and sharing this part

Catherine Price:

of her personal life with colleagues.

Catherine Price:

So the reason I bring that up, not only cuz it was just this lovely moment,

Catherine Price:

but also because she was now closer with this person she worked with and

Catherine Price:

was having these conversations that she never would've had otherwise.

Catherine Price:

And in that case, maybe.

Catherine Price:

The outcome was just that they had this like kind of nice personal moment.

Catherine Price:

But I've heard a lot of other stories where people actually reach out to someone

Catherine Price:

in a different department or they ask an interesting question to a colleague.

Catherine Price:

Um, that's somewhat unusual, whether it's like a playful question like the ones

Catherine Price:

we were talking about or just reaching out to someone saying, Hey, can I bounce

Catherine Price:

an idea off of you for five minutes?

Catherine Price:

And doing that, we're having this kind of openness and this playful spirit actually.

Catherine Price:

Created connections between people who didn't normally work together,

Catherine Price:

and also really open people up to brainstorming together and

Catherine Price:

finding new solutions to problems.

Catherine Price:

So all that is to say, I think that playfulness brings us

Catherine Price:

closer to other people, creates these meaningful connections.

Catherine Price:

And the more of those you have, the easier it's gonna be to collaborate

Catherine Price:

and to come up with new ideas.

Catherine Price:

And you'll also enjoy what you're working on and that makes you more

Catherine Price:

efficient, cuz you're not trying to force yourself to stick with

Catherine Price:

something if you're enjoying it.

Catherine Price:

So I think we're thinking about playing work entirely wrong.

Tzuki Stewart:

Yeah, I completely agree.

Tzuki Stewart:

I mean, people the flow, that, and that's what I think negative

Tzuki Stewart:

end, fear around, people are outta

Catherine Price:

it's just so shortsighted.

Catherine Price:

So it was interesting to me to reflect.

Catherine Price:

This fun intervention and this theme of fun at work because one question I

Catherine Price:

get all the time when I talk about fun is how can we have more fun at work?

Catherine Price:

And also, is it even appropriate to have fun at work?

Catherine Price:

Lemme just call

Catherine Price:

and I normally answer in the sense of like, yes, it is possible to

Catherine Price:

have fun at work and we should be having fun at work, but it hadn't.

Catherine Price:

Doing this contra intervention made me also realize there's actually a

Catherine Price:

way to use fun and play to make work.

Catherine Price:

Effective.

Catherine Price:

So there's like two different ways.

Catherine Price:

Like you're enjoying yourself more and that itself is great, but you can actually

Catherine Price:

use some tools of fun and of playfulness in particular to help with work.

Catherine Price:

And that's something I think people have not appreciated

Catherine Price:

at all as much as they should.

Catherine Price:

So just to give two examples of things that came out of this

Catherine Price:

contra intervention workshop.

Catherine Price:

One was that we, as I alluded to earlier, brainstormed, playful question.

Catherine Price:

That we could use to get to know people in less conventional ways.

Catherine Price:

And that was fun in and of itself to brainstorm questions to ask.

Catherine Price:

But then we actually asked people if they had tried any of these things,

Catherine Price:

and a number of people said yes.

Catherine Price:

They had been using the first five minutes of meetings to ask people one of these

Catherine Price:

questions, and that as a result, not only did people kind of laugh and feel this

Catherine Price:

connection with each other more at the beginning of the meeting, but then meeting

Catherine Price:

itself ended up feeling more focus.

Catherine Price:

And more efficient and more productive and creative because

Catherine Price:

there had been this moment of playful connection at the beginning.

Catherine Price:

So it's interesting to think that not only was it kind of just fun to, like,

Catherine Price:

for example, another one of the questions is, what's the last internet rabbit hole?

Catherine Price:

You fell down?

Catherine Price:

You know, just like you just learn something interesting about your

Catherine Price:

colleague, but that the act of sharing actually creates probably a

Catherine Price:

biochemical response in our bodies that makes us, so that we're in a state

Catherine Price:

where we're actually able to be more.

Catherine Price:

So that was really interesting.

Catherine Price:

Another exercise that the Momentum Labs people introduced that I

Catherine Price:

loved was this idea of using playfulness to generate ideas.

Catherine Price:

So they had this ex exercise called Worst First, which basically was that, you

Catherine Price:

know, if you're trying to brainstorm, say the, the example one of the guys

Catherine Price:

gave is like, say you're a marketing company and you're trying to come up

Catherine Price:

with like marketing slogans for the holidays and you're trying to brainstorm.

Catherine Price:

There's a lot of pressure.

Catherine Price:

You're like worried about saying your ideas in front of the group.

Catherine Price:

What if it's bad?

Catherine Price:

Also, your brain is, your inner critic is really engaged in telling

Catherine Price:

you like, oh, that's a bad idea.

Catherine Price:

Like throwing out all these things before you even say it out loud.

Catherine Price:

So their approach instead is to challenge people, like get into small groups or

Catherine Price:

on your own and spend like five minutes trying to come up with 30 horrible

Catherine Price:

ideas, the worst ideas you possibly can.

Catherine Price:

The worst.

Catherine Price:

The worst they are the better.

Catherine Price:

And we did this as a group with the question of how.

Catherine Price:

How can you create more of a sense of bonding when you have

Catherine Price:

Zoom meetings and you're working remotely, you know, basically what

Catherine Price:

everybody's struggling with now.

Catherine Price:

And so then we put people into breakout rooms and some of the responses

Catherine Price:

people gave were just hilarious.

Catherine Price:

It was like, oh, well you should just.

Catherine Price:

, you should make it mandatory that everyone leaves their microphone on at all times.

Catherine Price:

No one gets to mute anything.

Catherine Price:

Or like everyone has to show their least suitable for work

Catherine Price:

photo with everyone on their team.

Catherine Price:

Or you know, you start every Zoom meeting by making a comment about each

Catherine Price:

person's physical appearance, right?

Catherine Price:

Like horrible ideas.

Catherine Price:

And people were laughing as they were even sharing this afterwards.

Catherine Price:

The point was not just that, that kind of like opens you up

Catherine Price:

and it's kind of funny, right?

Catherine Price:

Anything with laughter is gonna be so bonding.

Catherine Price:

But then the next step was, okay, look at this list of 30 ideas that you came

Catherine Price:

up with cuz you're trying to come up with horrible ones and ask yourself, are there

Catherine Price:

the seeds for any good ideas in there?

Catherine Price:

You know, is there anything that actually could be used?

Catherine Price:

And kind of spun in some way to make it a good idea.

Catherine Price:

And that was a really interesting process because people came away with actual

Catherine Price:

ideas and then we then compiled those ideas and voted on some of our favorites.

Catherine Price:

And what I thought was very interesting about that approach was that you're taking

Catherine Price:

a playful exercise that's fun to do.

Catherine Price:

It brought people closer, and it was enjoyable.

Catherine Price:

That's generating lots of ideas.

Catherine Price:

So you're.

Catherine Price:

Diverging, like getting bigger.

Catherine Price:

Let's big, and then you bring it back together.

Catherine Price:

So you're like, okay, let's take what we've created and bring it back and focus

Catherine Price:

and see if there's anything usable here.

Catherine Price:

So this was all within like, you know, 10 or 10 minutes or so

Catherine Price:

that we were able to come up with some solid ideas and had a good.

Catherine Price:

Good time doing it and felt closer together, even though in a very

Catherine Price:

metal level we were on a Zoom call with strangers, total strangers,

Catherine Price:

not even people who work together.

Catherine Price:

So that, I thought was just a powerful example of how play and fun can be

Catherine Price:

employed on multiple levels to make work go better and also be more enjoyable.

Tzuki Stewart:

And I think What are your reflections on how

Catherine Price:

I think that it's been really challenging to.

Catherine Price:

Create fun and play over , over zoom.

Catherine Price:

I'm not saying though, that we really had much of that when we were all

Tzuki Stewart:

I was gonna say, yeah, where, where are we starting?

Catherine Price:

Yeah.

Catherine Price:

I think

Catherine Price:

whatever happened in person was kind of serendipitous and not necessarily

Catherine Price:

that thought out in most circumstances.

Catherine Price:

But then when you take away a lot of that serendipity is dependent on

Catherine Price:

having interactions with people in real life where you just happen to

Catherine Price:

run into a colleague and then you.

Catherine Price:

An enjoyable conversation, or you're let go and grab coffee or

Catherine Price:

whatever it might be, those little interstitial moments in your day.

Catherine Price:

But then you take that away and suddenly, in many cases from

Catherine Price:

companies I've, I've spoken for, you know, people will say a lot of our

Catherine Price:

workforce hasn't even met each other.

Catherine Price:

Like they never knew each other in person, which is kind of a crazy place to be.

Catherine Price:

So I think you have double challenges in the virtual world.

Catherine Price:

First of all, it's just not the same as being in person.

Catherine Price:

Like there's a reason that everyone's sick of Zoom calls.

Catherine Price:

And then you also have the challenge of being potentially

Catherine Price:

in a situation where people never have met each other face to face.

Catherine Price:

But I think what was, what was inspiring to me about this fun intervention

Catherine Price:

experience is that it showed that if you actually are more intentional about

Catherine Price:

how you gather people, going back to Priya Parker, um, and what kind of

Catherine Price:

structures you give people and what kind, like how you use technology.

Catherine Price:

For example, zoom allowed us to do breakout rooms.

Catherine Price:

Very interesting to see how many people immediately left the meeting

Catherine Price:

when breakout rooms were mentioned.

Catherine Price:

Cuz they were like, oh no, no, no.

Catherine Price:

I was here just to listen.

Catherine Price:

But the people who stuck around really found it valuable.

Catherine Price:

And you know, I spoke to one person who's a total introvert afterwards,

Catherine Price:

and she was like, yeah, I was a little hard to get over myself and

Catherine Price:

be in that breakout room, but I did it and it actually was enjoyable.

Catherine Price:

And then she said it actually made.

Catherine Price:

Self-conscious the next time she was in the context when

Catherine Price:

there was a breakout room.

Catherine Price:

So I think that, yeah, I think that there's ways to use technology better

Catherine Price:

that could actually give us opportunities we don't have when we're in person.

Catherine Price:

But with that said, I do think nearly always in person is better.

Tzuki Stewart:

Yeah.

Tzuki Stewart:

Uh, I

Catherine Price:

Oh.

Tzuki Stewart:

default And I was like, get that And we had

Tzuki Stewart:

to kind of go to the central IT Disabled on my login break house.

Tzuki Stewart:

wow, break house can be so powerful for feel power to that you're never

Tzuki Stewart:

gonna And I and, you're missing out on

Catherine Price:

Right, right.

Catherine Price:

But it's also cuz you, if you stick someone in a breakout room and you

Catherine Price:

don't tell 'em what to do, then of course it's gonna be awkward.

Catherine Price:

And of course you're not gonna wanna do it and it won't lead to anything useful.

Catherine Price:

You, I think it goes back to what we were talking about, the conversational prompts.

Catherine Price:

Really what we're talking about is giving a structure to interactions.

Catherine Price:

of some sort.

Catherine Price:

I think of them actually in the conversational setting as being

Catherine Price:

playgrounds of like, and Priya Parker talks about this as well, but I was

Catherine Price:

reading a lot of research about play when I was writing my book, and just

Catherine Price:

the idea that there's, there's kind of a, if you're in an environment where

Catherine Price:

there's a set of rules that govern your behavior, it actually is very freeing.

Catherine Price:

Like everybody knows if you're in a literal playground that it's okay to

Catherine Price:

hang upside down on the monkey bars.

Catherine Price:

Right.

Catherine Price:

It'd be like kind of weird if you did that on scaffolding on the

Catherine Price:

street, like you get some looks, but there's like ways that we.

Catherine Price:

You can have rules and structure, give people permission to be

Catherine Price:

playful in different context.

Catherine Price:

I mean, in some sense, this quite serious context can also be this kind

Catherine Price:

of playground, the structured thing.

Catherine Price:

There's a way to behave in a courtroom.

Catherine Price:

There's a way to behave in a restaurant.

Catherine Price:

We are in these kind of situations all the time, but it's very

Catherine Price:

comforting and freeing actually to know what the expectations are.

Catherine Price:

And so if you go to a breakout room and you're like, I don't know what

Catherine Price:

we're supposed to be doing, I dunno what the goal is, I don't know what

Catherine Price:

we're supposed to be talking about, that's gonna be super awkward.

Catherine Price:

If you go into a breakout room and someone has told you your goal is to spend the

Catherine Price:

next five minutes coming up with 30 horrible ideas for how to bond over a zoom

Catherine Price:

call, then you can hit the ground running.

Catherine Price:

You know, and then you have a way to actually make it into a

Catherine Price:

productive and enjoyable experience.

Tzuki Stewart:

Sticking experiencing true fun talk about, the power

Tzuki Stewart:

of fun squad And I wonder how many at work quite alien as an

Catherine Price:

Geez, I gotta think back on this.

Catherine Price:

I mean, what you're alluding to is, yeah.

Catherine Price:

When I was writing the Power of Fun, I got a huge, like a bunch of volunteers from my

Catherine Price:

mailing list to fill out all these surveys for me about moments that stood out to

Catherine Price:

them as having been truly fun before even offering them a potential definition.

Catherine Price:

Cause I was trying to nail down a definition of fun.

Catherine Price:

like a, create a definition of fun.

Catherine Price:

Cause there really wasn't a good one.

Catherine Price:

And so I asked people to tell me stories from their own lives that they

Catherine Price:

would describe as having been quote.

Catherine Price:

So fun.

Catherine Price:

That was how I phrased it.

Catherine Price:

And I collected three from each person.

Catherine Price:

And then I asked people to tell me to describe an experience they wish

Catherine Price:

they could participate in or plan that they think would also result in fun.

Catherine Price:

and I did that because I actually sent this survey out in August of 2020, so

Catherine Price:

it was still very much in lockdown.

Catherine Price:

So people actually, it was kind of sad.

Catherine Price:

People were telling me about all these things that had been fun and it was

Catherine Price:

like, that's not gonna happen now.

Catherine Price:

So I don't remember off the top of my head the breakdown of all these,

Catherine Price:

there's thousands of them at this point.

Catherine Price:

I will say though, that it did stand out to me that I don't have any

Catherine Price:

memories of any that were on screens.

Catherine Price:

No one was like, I was on Instagram and it was so fun.

Catherine Price:

Um, I tend to think that there were some people who did.

Catherine Price:

Upon with colleagues, but we're often surprised by it.

Catherine Price:

But yeah, I would say the vast majority of stories, people who

Catherine Price:

are not associating with, um, time at work, which is really too bad.

Catherine Price:

But I think also if you then ask people, like you just don't think to think about

Catherine Price:

work as having had a moment of fun.

Catherine Price:

But if you ask people, did you ever experience this?

Catherine Price:

Then they might be like, oh yeah, there was that time when actually we

Catherine Price:

were working on a project and we were staying up late and like, you know,

Catherine Price:

it was really hard and challenging.

Catherine Price:

But we also ordered takeout and like, we actually, I got to know my.

Catherine Price:

Probably in a different way, and we laughed a lot and it was

Catherine Price:

really a bonding experience.

Catherine Price:

So I think, I think it probably does happen, but we're not calling it out as.

Tzuki Stewart:

as we've been impact that I'm a big advocate but I think

Tzuki Stewart:

as well creating a we work, eat further playing do you think we

Tzuki Stewart:

should in fact trying to Or does it of work is trying to make attracting

Catherine Price:

I don't really think so.

Catherine Price:

I think that it makes it more enjoyable and fun and then makes it more efficient

Catherine Price:

so you actually save time cause you don't feel like you're grinding away.

Catherine Price:

So I actually think the more you know, I mean obviously you don't wanna be

Catherine Price:

inappropriate, but like having a playful attitude at work I think is

Catherine Price:

beneficial pretty much in every way.

Catherine Price:

But I also think we could stand to build more of that into our leisure time too.

Catherine Price:

Because even though theoretically that's time for play, play is an

Catherine Price:

interactive experience, but most of us spend a lot of our leisure time just

Catherine Price:

kind of sitting alone watching tv.

Catherine Price:

So I think we could do a better job in all regards there, and it would make our

Catherine Price:

leisure time better, our relationships.

Catherine Price:

Really everything better.

Catherine Price:

And also I would say that when you're playful, you're totally focused.

Catherine Price:

Like you can't really be dis, well, certainly for fun, you can't be distracted

Catherine Price:

and be having fun because I think that being in flow is a component of.

Catherine Price:

Fun as in the state of being totally engaged and present in

Catherine Price:

your, you know, current experience.

Catherine Price:

But I would argue that in order to really play, you have to be present

Catherine Price:

too, because you have to be responding to things, whether it's a game, you

Catherine Price:

know, if you're checking your phone or you're playing tennis, you're

Catherine Price:

gonna get hit in the head with a ball.

Catherine Price:

But like, if you're in a conversation and you're, and you're having a playful

Catherine Price:

conversation with someone, if you're not listening to what they're saying

Catherine Price:

and paying attention and remembering it, then you can't make callbacks to things.

Catherine Price:

You can't make jokes.

Catherine Price:

You, they're gonna not really feel very connected.

Tzuki Stewart:

you as an when did you last ask of full

Tzuki Stewart:

knowledge that you are exactly.

Tzuki Stewart:

So And the, playing, I'm successful, with a lot on their plate.

Tzuki Stewart:

How you actively carve out lens your life When did

Catherine Price:

Yeah.

Catherine Price:

Well, I think you're actually touching on, I think, a fundamental issue we

Catherine Price:

have when it comes to play and with fun, but it works well with play.

Catherine Price:

Just the way you're talking about it there, we think of playing as a

Catherine Price:

verb, but I think we should think about it as an adjective so that,

Catherine Price:

in other words, the difference between playing and being playful.

Catherine Price:

I think there's ways to play verb in many aspects of life, but that

Catherine Price:

in the sense of being playful.

Catherine Price:

But I think people think like, oh, I have to sit down and play like,

Catherine Price:

I'm gonna play a game of chess.

Catherine Price:

Well, that's a commitment.

Catherine Price:

You're really busy.

Catherine Price:

When are you gonna play chess?

Catherine Price:

I don't know.

Catherine Price:

I personally have no interest in chess.

Catherine Price:

Doesn't sound very fun at all to me.

Catherine Price:

But you can be playful about everything.

Catherine Price:

You can be playful about cooking dinner.

Catherine Price:

You can be playful about how you fold the laundry.

Catherine Price:

Like I think I know one of the things that made me and makes me love my

Catherine Price:

husband, the, you know, One of his primary characteristics is playfulness.

Catherine Price:

So I would say that I'm playful all the time, every time I interact with him.

Catherine Price:

And if we're not being playful, then something's wrong, . So I

Catherine Price:

would say in terms of like when have I recently been playful?

Catherine Price:

I mean, just this morning I had a walk with a friend with

Catherine Price:

a really playful conversation.

Catherine Price:

I also had, I mean, lots of moments, but like another that stands out is

Catherine Price:

I was playing music with friends.

Catherine Price:

The other day.

Catherine Price:

So I was literally playing and a friend of mine offered cuz he knew, speaking

Catherine Price:

of feeling seen, knew that I would find it very fun if we were to try play this

Catherine Price:

Carrie Underwood song called Before He Cheats, which I recommend that people

Catherine Price:

look up if they haven't heard it.

Catherine Price:

It's a fun song.

Catherine Price:

It's a fun, it's from like the early two thousands.

Catherine Price:

Anyway.

Catherine Price:

Um, It's obviously originally sung by a woman about a guy cheating, but my

Catherine Price:

friend sang it, who's a guy, and he, he like went for it and he's like, there's

Catherine Price:

certain notes I can't hit and whatever.

Catherine Price:

But we did it because it was just gonna be fun.

Catherine Price:

And so we had a really playful attitude towards playing the song.

Catherine Price:

And that was really enjoyable.

Catherine Price:

Um, I've tried to bring more play.

Catherine Price:

I, I don't know, like the other as a separate tangential thing.

Catherine Price:

I've getting been getting very freaked out by AI and, uh, algorithms.

Catherine Price:

Something, this is something I think about a lot.

Catherine Price:

But, so I was playing around with Che G P T the other day and I asked Che G P T if

Catherine Price:

it thought that a hotdog was a sandwich.

Catherine Price:

Um, it gave me a super boring answer and I was like, we'll never be friends.

Catherine Price:

And then I actually said, I said to it, yeah.

Catherine Price:

I was like, that was not a very fun answer.

Catherine Price:

And it was like, I'm sorry, as an AI algorithm, my job is just

Catherine Price:

to, you know, basically aggregate information it presented to you.

Catherine Price:

So a hotdog could be a sandwich, da da da da da.

Catherine Price:

And I was like, boring.

Catherine Price:

So anyway,

Catherine Price:

but I, you

Tzuki Stewart:

there we go.

Tzuki Stewart:

This.

Catherine Price:

bring that, Yeah, I don't know.

Catherine Price:

I interviewed two, um, what were they?

Catherine Price:

Like psych, I'm doing a podcast where I interviewed doctors about their work.

Catherine Price:

Totally separate project, and it's been really fun to try to inject playfulness

Catherine Price:

into conversations with, you know, like a reproductive psychiatrist or like

Catherine Price:

someone who is a molecular geneticist.

Catherine Price:

It's like, how can I bring out a bit of playfulness because.

Catherine Price:

It makes them human.

Catherine Price:

You've got these superstar people, but if you can get them to play with you for

Catherine Price:

a second, it just shows their humanity.

Catherine Price:

I think that's so important.

Catherine Price:

I also think if all of us could play a bit more with each other,

Catherine Price:

the world would be a better place.

Catherine Price:

You've got me ranting now, but it would be cuz it's, it's makes us see each other.

Tzuki Stewart:

I love that

Catherine Price:

g

Catherine Price:

t

Tzuki Stewart:

and.

Tzuki Stewart:

You know, when you, you read about, AI humans, and what is it about humans?

Tzuki Stewart:

and it's like that that spark of well, I dunno, is it, is

Tzuki Stewart:

it human or is biological?

Tzuki Stewart:

Because animals

Catherine Price:

Yeah,

Tzuki Stewart:

I dunno, we, I don't think we kind of have

Catherine Price:

no, we definitely don't.

Catherine Price:

Yeah.

Catherine Price:

I would also say, I think that, you know, AI chat, it's gonna be, it's

Catherine Price:

gonna do a better job next time.

Catherine Price:

Like, I think it's gonna be a matter of time before you can

Catherine Price:

banter with, um, chat G B T.

Catherine Price:

And that terrifies me.

Catherine Price:

But I will say, yeah, my research I'm playing, you know, that

Catherine Price:

would've come across this too.

Catherine Price:

Humans are not the only, obviously like go to a dog park like.

Catherine Price:

Their masters at play.

Catherine Price:

But I remember reading these really funny references to articles that were

Catherine Price:

like fish that leap juggle and teas or like the platypus in play, like all

Catherine Price:

these different animals down to like basically reptiles and maybe even insects.

Catherine Price:

Like there's an element of play.

Catherine Price:

I'm always really surprised when.

Catherine Price:

You know when you read about the theories about why animals play and it seems

Catherine Price:

like now it doesn't really seem like it's practice for something serious, but

Catherine Price:

I'm always like, wait guys, like what if it's just because it's enjoyable?

Catherine Price:

What if the reason that we play, cuz people will always say, oh, if

Catherine Price:

you're being playful, you're wasting energy that could be put towards

Catherine Price:

this survival of this species.

Catherine Price:

You're not using it to.

Catherine Price:

Or like you're not using to defend off attackers, you're

Catherine Price:

making yourself vulnerable.

Catherine Price:

And I'm like, but you're socially bonding.

Catherine Price:

And for so many animal species, most definitely us, that is

Catherine Price:

actually a survival thing.

Catherine Price:

I think there's a, I think it's fascinating to think about fun and play as

Catherine Price:

actually being evolutionarily important, if not essential, because it connects you

Catherine Price:

to other people, helps you bond together.

Catherine Price:

And it also releases all sorts of feel good chemicals in your body that are good

Catherine Price:

for your health and counteract some of the negative effects of stress hormones.

Catherine Price:

So I, I really, to me, there's like a very clear biological

Catherine Price:

reason to play and have fun

Tzuki Stewart:

Okay.

Tzuki Stewart:

I so you can go to your physical therapy.

Tzuki Stewart:

Um,

Catherine Price:

I also asked my physical therapist if he

Catherine Price:

thought a hot dog was a sandwich.

Catherine Price:

This is clearly a thing he thought it was, and I'm getting confused by

Catherine Price:

everyone's arguments cuz everyone has a different argument about this.

Catherine Price:

He, he felt pretty strongly about it.

Catherine Price:

There's also a very funny clip my husband reminded me of, where Stephen Colbert,

Catherine Price:

the late night host here in the States, he interviewed Ruth Bader Ginsburg,

Catherine Price:

the former Supreme Court Justice, um,

Catherine Price:

And he asked her if she thought a hotdog was a sandwich.

Catherine Price:

And she brilliantly countered with will.

Catherine Price:

I can't answer that question till you define what a sandwich is, which is

Catherine Price:

like the whole point, Ruth anyway.

Tzuki Stewart:

Uh, one thing before I in the reflections,

Tzuki Stewart:

The word professor your band

Catherine Price:

Mm-hmm.

Tzuki Stewart:

that seems to be a big about bantering, what about.

Tzuki Stewart:

I dunno, I like, how do you you play What's your, yeah.

Tzuki Stewart:

What do you think about in the

Catherine Price:

Well, first of all, thank you for noticing that I, cuz I

Catherine Price:

didn't even realize I kept using that.

Catherine Price:

But it's something I've thought about a lot because I think it's something

Catherine Price:

that's missing for many adults.

Catherine Price:

We have different types of relationships, right?

Catherine Price:

You've got your significant other, you've got your kids, you've got your

Catherine Price:

colleagues, you've got, I don't know, like whatever other relationships

Catherine Price:

we have, but do we have playmates?

Catherine Price:

And some of those people can serve as playmates, but it sounds weird as an

Catherine Price:

adult to be like, Amy, thanks Playboy, but like you, It sounds kind of weird to

Catherine Price:

be like, I wanna have more playmates, but I was just talking to someone about this,

Catherine Price:

this week about how important that is.

Catherine Price:

I think each of us have different levels of need for this, but I

Catherine Price:

personally have a huge need to have people I can just play with.

Catherine Price:

I just going back to your first question, what I think play is, is this feeling of

Catherine Price:

release, of letting go, of responsibility, of not having to be like a profess.

Catherine Price:

Adults or even to talk.

Catherine Price:

You know, there's sometimes where it's like lovely to catch up with friends

Catherine Price:

in an intimate way, but sometimes you just don't even wanna do that.

Catherine Price:

And I've got certain relationships in my life where I realize that we don't really

Catherine Price:

talk about personal stuff that much.

Catherine Price:

And it's really more on the level of just life of like talking about these.

Catherine Price:

It seems inconsequential questions or subjects or whatever, but

Catherine Price:

the, it's just fodder for a real relationship that comes from play.

Catherine Price:

So you're saying, what do you do if you don't have playmates?

Catherine Price:

Well, I would say, I would say start by actually asking yourself if that's true.

Catherine Price:

Like, I actually think of these, it's a variation on something I think of

Catherine Price:

as like fun, kind of like certain people are kind of fun magnets.

Catherine Price:

Like they, you just have more fun when they're around.

Catherine Price:

Those are probably playmates.

Catherine Price:

So if you have any friends where you're like, oh yeah, just consistently have fun.

Catherine Price:

But really anyone who's willing to engage with you when you feel a sense

Catherine Price:

of lightness, I would say, or where you find yourself laughing more than

Catherine Price:

normal, like that's probably a playmate.

Catherine Price:

If you don't feel like you have enough people like that, or even if you do,

Catherine Price:

I think that there's a real benefit in having a shared activity going back to

Catherine Price:

what I was saying before, because it gives you, again, a structure and something

Catherine Price:

to play around and different people have different activities that are going.

Catherine Price:

Generate that or to lead toward to a playful spirit more than others.

Catherine Price:

So for some people it might be an organized sport like join some kind of

Catherine Price:

soccer club or football club or whatever.

Catherine Price:

Other people might find it in a different type of like class or some

Catherine Price:

kind of, I don't know, anything really like a painting class or there was a

Catherine Price:

foraging group that was meeting here in Philadelphia where I live a while ago.

Catherine Price:

Just something that gives you a, a shared vocabulary because in order

Catherine Price:

to play you need to have some.

Catherine Price:

Material with which to play.

Catherine Price:

Right?

Catherine Price:

But it doesn't need to be the traditional, like game night.

Catherine Price:

It's really anything you're interested in that you can use to connect

Catherine Price:

with people in a playful manner.

Catherine Price:

And I would say to people to just kind of, Sample stuff, like make it a priority.

Catherine Price:

We all have more time than we realize.

Catherine Price:

Even if we are really busy professionals or we are parents.

Catherine Price:

And I'd say that in part because we're spending before the pandemic, the best

Catherine Price:

statistics I'd had were the people were spending upwards of four hours a day on

Catherine Price:

their phone, like just their phone, not their laptop or their tablet or anything.

Catherine Price:

Just the phone.

Catherine Price:

That's 60 full days a year and it's a quarter of your waking life.

Catherine Price:

So I really do think if we were to.

Catherine Price:

Cut back on some of the things that we objectively know are a waste of time.

Catherine Price:

Like scrolling through social media for most people is a waste of time.

Catherine Price:

You actually can carve out time to prioritize play, and then I would

Catherine Price:

just experiment, try something that's piqued your curiosity.

Catherine Price:

Something that you, you used to be into when you were a kid.

Catherine Price:

For me personally, what led to this?

Catherine Price:

This musical community, which is honestly the, the biggest community, most important

Catherine Price:

community in my life right now, was the fact that I cut back on my phone use.

Catherine Price:

I wrote a book called How to Break Up With Your Phone, and I broke up with my

Catherine Price:

phone, which means I just created a more intentional, healthier relationship.

Catherine Price:

I ended up with more free time and then I asked myself, well, what's

Catherine Price:

something I say I wanna do, but that I supposedly don't have time for?

Catherine Price:

And my answer to that question was learn to play guitar.

Catherine Price:

Cuz as I mentioned, I played piano since I was a kid, but I didn't,

Catherine Price:

I, I have a guitar my grandmother gave me money for in college.

Catherine Price:

I was very close with her and I've always felt kind of guilty.

Catherine Price:

I didn't learn to play the guitar, so I was like, I'm gonna

Catherine Price:

sign up for a guitar class.

Catherine Price:

And I started going to this Wednesday night guitar class, P Y O B.

Catherine Price:

It was other, obviously other adults.

Catherine Price:

It was at a children's music studio.

Catherine Price:

We were playing like the Moana theme song.

Catherine Price:

It was just inherently playful.

Catherine Price:

Like it wasn't just, we were playing, but it was playful.

Catherine Price:

And that to this day, like that's what I do on Wednesday nights.

Catherine Price:

Like I happen to hit the bullseye when I first started this.

Catherine Price:

But I would say get out there and experiment and get together with

Catherine Price:

different groups of people doing different things and notice how

Catherine Price:

you feel when you're around them.

Catherine Price:

And if it feels draining and kind of like a chore and you dread going,

Catherine Price:

then you didn't find playmates.

Catherine Price:

But if you, you just feel a sense of.

Catherine Price:

When you're around them and you find yourself looking forward to getting

Catherine Price:

together, this sounds kind of obvious, but like then you've probably found

Catherine Price:

some good playmates, but you gotta, they won't necessarily be the people

Catherine Price:

you're closest to, which I think is something that was important for me to

Catherine Price:

recognize, like hopefully your close friends have an element of play, but

Catherine Price:

you can also have playmates that you're never gonna be super close friends with.

Catherine Price:

You know, I am genuine friends with some of the hug from my guitar community

Catherine Price:

now, but there's other situations in which if you took our instruments

Catherine Price:

away, we'd be like, oh, we don't know what we're supposed to talk about.

Catherine Price:

We don't talk.

Catherine Price:

We get together and we play, you know, Lisa Loeb songs.

Catherine Price:

Like that's what we do, like

Catherine Price:

So anyway, rambling again.

Catherine Price:

You got me.

Tzuki Stewart:

Yeah, no, I, I almost, some loved ones But also I

Tzuki Stewart:

love this loved ones and actually,

Tzuki Stewart:

And

Catherine Price:

and value it.

Tzuki Stewart:

yeah, it's again, the word provocation, can be walking down

Catherine Price:

Yeah.

Catherine Price:

It's so easy once you start doing it, you realize, oh my God,

Catherine Price:

this actually is not that hard.

Catherine Price:

And people are very responsive to it.

Catherine Price:

So I would say, you know, if there are some people in your life that

Catherine Price:

you don't feel are particularly playful, maybe try being playful

Catherine Price:

with them and see what happens.

Catherine Price:

I mean, they might still not be playful, in which case you, you

Catherine Price:

did your deed , you can move on.

Catherine Price:

But, You also might be surprised that actually this person who seemed

Catherine Price:

totally serious has a playful side.

Catherine Price:

That's something I've been finding in these interviews is like when

Catherine Price:

I interview these scientists, they often have a playful, you

Catherine Price:

know, they're playful by nature.

Catherine Price:

Cuz playful playfulness is also kind of curiosity.

Catherine Price:

But I think the best analogy for what you were just talking about is, is actually

Catherine Price:

dogs, like dogs have a very well known, what's known as a play signal, which

Catherine Price:

is when they bow and they stick their butts up in the air and wag their tails.

Catherine Price:

I'm not suggesting we do that, but.

Catherine Price:

Although you did it right, that's true.

Catherine Price:

If you did that, it probably someone report back,

Tzuki Stewart:

pretty clear signal.

Catherine Price:

Yeah, exactly.

Catherine Price:

But we all can kind of put ourselves out there in the

Catherine Price:

world in a more playful manner.

Catherine Price:

The first step to that honestly is like, look up from your phone.

Catherine Price:

You are never going to play with another person or experience this if

Catherine Price:

you're just staring at your phone.

Catherine Price:

And I've just, I've been astonished in my own life like, Easy it is to initiate

Catherine Price:

play and how it almost becomes this habit and how much people respond to it.

Catherine Price:

Like I end up, I'm, I'm not trying to strike out conversations with like

Catherine Price:

ride share like Uber and Lyft drivers, but I keep ending up in these little

Catherine Price:

conversations with them and they're fun.

Catherine Price:

Because we're essentially just bantering, right?

Catherine Price:

For like five minutes, never gonna see them again.

Catherine Price:

Or the other day I was in an art gallery scene in exhibit, and there was this

Catherine Price:

guy who was doing this like weird thing with his, he was making a telescope

Catherine Price:

out of his hand and looking through it.

Catherine Price:

And my friend and I were like, what's that guy doing?

Catherine Price:

And I was like, why don't we just ask him?

Catherine Price:

And I went up and asked this guy like, what are you doing?

Catherine Price:

It turned out he was just nearsighted and he was trying to focus.

Catherine Price:

But we ended up having this like playful moment and it inspired

Catherine Price:

me and my friend to then.

Catherine Price:

I don't know how this happened.

Catherine Price:

We ended up striking up conversations with like eight

Catherine Price:

separate people in this art gallery.

Catherine Price:

Never would've thought to have done that.

Catherine Price:

I feel like there was some kind of, I don't know, serendipitous feeling

Catherine Price:

in the air, but maybe it's cuz we were just sending off these like.

Catherine Price:

Openness to other people.

Catherine Price:

And the exhibit itself was great.

Catherine Price:

I really enjoyed it.

Catherine Price:

But what I really remember from that afternoon is like having these little

Catherine Price:

playful moments with other people.

Catherine Price:

So in my mind, like that's what makes life worth living and

Catherine Price:

we should be prioritizing it.

Catherine Price:

And it also happens to have all these benefits in terms of how we

Catherine Price:

collaborate and work with other people.

Catherine Price:

But fundamentally, it makes us feel happy and it makes us feel.

Tzuki Stewart:

Um,

Catherine Price:

Oh,

Tzuki Stewart:

Is there anything

Catherine Price:

Oh man.

Catherine Price:

Uh, I clearly, we could clearly talk for a long time.

Catherine Price:

I think the thing I would say is I would just invite people, I know I kept

Catherine Price:

talking about the fun intervention in this conversation, the people that I

Catherine Price:

was running these fun interventions with from Momentum Labs and I, we

Catherine Price:

were so inspired by the experience.

Catherine Price:

We actually decided to do this as a monthly thing.

Catherine Price:

So if anyone is interested, they're free.

Catherine Price:

And it's gonna be the first Tuesday of every month.

Catherine Price:

And if you go to screen life balance.com.

Catherine Price:

There's information on it.

Catherine Price:

So I'd encourage you to come and invite friends or colleagues,

Catherine Price:

or really anybody to join you.

Catherine Price:

And every month we're gonna be doing a different hands-on exercise related to

Catherine Price:

exactly what you and I have just been talking about, about some of these more

Catherine Price:

concrete techniques that you can try in the moment and then take with you back to

Catherine Price:

your teams or your family or friends or whatever to use play and use fun to create

Catherine Price:

these moments of connection with people.

Catherine Price:

So I think that's the biggest thing, is that I would love to

Catherine Price:

invite people to join us so that we.

Catherine Price:

You know, continue to all work together to share this with the world.

Tzuki Stewart:

reflections and your insights.

Tzuki Stewart:

As you say, I could have gone on,

Catherine Price:

Yes, you too.

Catherine Price:

I'm so happy we got to talk and I hope this won't be the last time.

Catherine Price:

So if, yes, let's stay in touch.

Tzuki Stewart:

So, Lucy, what did you notice about our

Tzuki Stewart:

conversation with Catherine?

Lucy Taylor:

Oh, there was loads.

Lucy Taylor:

I really, was inspired by that thought about giving people

Lucy Taylor:

conversational handholds.

Lucy Taylor:

So at her, Full party, you know, like giving people a little question to answer.

Lucy Taylor:

I thought that was so nice and thoughtful and caring and generous and just a

Lucy Taylor:

lovely way of, Shifting people out of the like boring, usual questions.

Lucy Taylor:

And how in doing that you create a completely different dynamic.

Lucy Taylor:

And I just could see so many applications for that at work, the

Lucy Taylor:

way we design meetings at conferences.

Lucy Taylor:

Um, yeah, I thought that was really nice and generous.

Tzuki Stewart:

Yeah, I completely agree.

Tzuki Stewart:

I.

Tzuki Stewart:

I didn't realize she was, um, a Priya Parker massive

Tzuki Stewart:

fan girl.

Tzuki Stewart:

Like I was too.

Tzuki Stewart:

So that such gorgeous surprise, and we both brought up

Tzuki Stewart:

that conversation.

Tzuki Stewart:

Um, and clearly we both find kind of intentionality around gatherings, um,

Tzuki Stewart:

is a, is a form of play for us both.

Tzuki Stewart:

So that was lovely to meet a kindred spirit.

Tzuki Stewart:

Um, in, in that.

Tzuki Stewart:

And I completely agree.

Tzuki Stewart:

I think a big takeaway for me was this idea of.

Tzuki Stewart:

How specificity can be very, very freeing.

Tzuki Stewart:

And so asking a very specific question that might seem quite odd, it, it frees

Tzuki Stewart:

up the conversation to go somewhere else.

Tzuki Stewart:

Um, and I just love that that tension between being kind of narrow and

Tzuki Stewart:

specific in, in what you're doing or what you're asking can actually

Tzuki Stewart:

have, a very, very freeing function.

Tzuki Stewart:

So I really, I really like that

Lucy Taylor:

Yeah, and I've been putting into practice and people are a bit like

Lucy Taylor:

confused to start asked somebody the other day what they'd been thinking

Lucy Taylor:

about and they were like, they didn't, they didn't really understand, like, so

Lucy Taylor:

I had to explain, but it then it, you know, it opened up a conversation in

Lucy Taylor:

a way that we definitely wouldn't have got to, had I not asked that question.

Lucy Taylor:

It's definitely about, I think for me, how to almost get past that initial,

Lucy Taylor:

as you say, kind of slightly awkward.

Lucy Taylor:

Slightly bamboozled.

Lucy Taylor:

Wow.

Lucy Taylor:

Wasn't expecting that.

Lucy Taylor:

And kind of goes back to our previous conversation with Alison around

Lucy Taylor:

the, the joy of the unexpected.

Lucy Taylor:

But there's often that initial.

Lucy Taylor:

Awkwardness, um, to kind of push past, I guess, or to move beyond.

Lucy Taylor:

and, and it is the same with the kind of the name tags I did.

Lucy Taylor:

And she was like, gosh, it feels so like dorky, right?

Lucy Taylor:

To, to give your guest name tags like that, that feels really bizarre.

Lucy Taylor:

But again, that can just, that small act with a little fact about yourself

Lucy Taylor:

with a little starter question can just spark pay for curiosity and.

Lucy Taylor:

Give license for different conversations and, and actually be really a form

Lucy Taylor:

of massive generosity to your guests.

Lucy Taylor:

Um, but it, but it takes that initial slightly uncomfortable, oh no, we're

Lucy Taylor:

gonna do this even though it's a bit odd.

Lucy Taylor:

Um, and I just really found that kind of inspiring and I, I want to,

Lucy Taylor:

I wanna do more of that in my life.

Lucy Taylor:

Yeah.

Lucy Taylor:

And my guess is that in doing that, you create a completely different event.

Lucy Taylor:

Like, I bet the conversations, the atmosphere, the energy was

Lucy Taylor:

completely different than it would've been had you just been

Lucy Taylor:

like, so what have you been up to?

Lucy Taylor:

Yeah,

Tzuki Stewart:

What do you do?

Tzuki Stewart:

Um, yeah.

Lucy Taylor:

I, I really liked how she widened the scope of the conversation

Lucy Taylor:

that we had kind of beyond play at work.

Lucy Taylor:

Cause obviously what we are, you know, here to talk about on the podcast and,

Lucy Taylor:

and there's so many facets of that.

Lucy Taylor:

But I really enjoyed her widening into.

Lucy Taylor:

Play and friendships and relationships.

Lucy Taylor:

And she really went into even just the kind of playfulness between

Lucy Taylor:

her and her husband and how she can kind of see different forms

Lucy Taylor:

of play in different friends.

Lucy Taylor:

And, you know, play doesn't have to be part of a friendship

Lucy Taylor:

and equally friendship.

Lucy Taylor:

You know, you don't need to have a deep friendship with someone to find, to

Lucy Taylor:

engage in a moment of play with them.

Lucy Taylor:

I just love that exploration of kind of the role that play

Lucy Taylor:

plays in our friendships and in our relationships beyond work.

Tzuki Stewart:

Yeah, and noticing.

Tzuki Stewart:

How you feel when you're in a playful dynamic with someone.

Tzuki Stewart:

So she was talking about, you know, there's that lightness and that

Tzuki Stewart:

sense that you are laughing more and noticing those feelings and when you

Tzuki Stewart:

feel sparked like that with somebody.

Tzuki Stewart:

I think often it, it's not necessarily friendships, sometimes just I find I

Tzuki Stewart:

have random playful interactions with the street and those little moments

Tzuki Stewart:

are really enlivening and fulfilling and like make my day way better.

Lucy Taylor:

Yeah, absolutely.

Lucy Taylor:

I think the phrase to use, which absolutely encapsulates what

Lucy Taylor:

you're just saying there, is, how might we put ourselves out

Lucy Taylor:

in the world in a playful manner?

Lucy Taylor:

And it's exactly that.

Lucy Taylor:

It's kind of when you.

Lucy Taylor:

Step out of your door.

Lucy Taylor:

yeah, how can you just seek out to, to also to bring some, a little bit

Lucy Taylor:

of play to someone else's day and to just have that interaction with

Lucy Taylor:

someone you might never see again, but it's, yeah, it's putting yourself

Lucy Taylor:

out in the world in a playful manner.

Lucy Taylor:

And I, I love that, that invitation and that, um, encouragement I think, and

Lucy Taylor:

the, the conversation I had with her.

Tzuki Stewart:

I really, um, love the idea of fun interventions and.

Tzuki Stewart:

Yeah, just finding ways of injecting little moments into your day and.

Tzuki Stewart:

Taking time to do that.

Tzuki Stewart:

Like I think that's so important.

Tzuki Stewart:

I think the, the thing that made my jaw drop was that, you know, that

Tzuki Stewart:

horrible little screen reminder she was talking about, about your screen time.

Tzuki Stewart:

I mean, mine's often five or six hours, which is horrendous.

Tzuki Stewart:

And even the four hours a day is like 60 days a year.

Tzuki Stewart:

I was just like, wow, I need to really address how I'm using my time and.

Tzuki Stewart:

And find ways of building more of those joyful, fun, playful

Tzuki Stewart:

moments into life outside of work.

Lucy Taylor:

Completely.

Lucy Taylor:

And I think part of that, a kind of practical way of

Lucy Taylor:

thinking about how, how do we.

Lucy Taylor:

Get off screens, get out into the world and, and find more play.

Lucy Taylor:

It was this idea of how might we kind of proactively seek out, you know, she

Lucy Taylor:

calls them fun magnets in our life.

Lucy Taylor:

And I think about when you think about people in your life, your friends,

Lucy Taylor:

your family, your colleagues, um, you know, you'll have lots of fun,

Lucy Taylor:

different kinds of fun with, with various members of, of the people in your life.

Lucy Taylor:

But I kind of spun on this head and thought, wow, imagine if I, rather than

Lucy Taylor:

just thinking about who I knew or how we knew each other, it was kind of how.

Lucy Taylor:

Who, who would I, how could I seek out more fun magnets?

Lucy Taylor:

Like, what do I love doing?

Lucy Taylor:

Could I go to something that other people might like doing those things?

Lucy Taylor:

And it's kind of turning on its head in terms of I'm going out,

Lucy Taylor:

I'm finding playmates, I'm finding people with whom I can have fun.

Lucy Taylor:

And that's often, I think, not something we tend to do as

Lucy Taylor:

adults with kind of busy lives.

Lucy Taylor:

Um, but I love that idea of how, how might you go out and find kind of fun

Lucy Taylor:

magnets and playmates that you could share a form of playfulness with.

Tzuki Stewart:

Yeah, and, and that sense of like just putting down our

Tzuki Stewart:

responsibility sometimes and diving into the inconsequential and the, you

Tzuki Stewart:

know, seemingly meaningless because actually, That's what makes life

Tzuki Stewart:

rich and fun and juicy and enjoyable.

Tzuki Stewart:

So I've got a question for you, Zuki.

Lucy Taylor:

Yes.

Lucy Taylor:

Tell me.

Lucy Taylor:

Ask

Tzuki Stewart:

is a hot dog a sandwich?

Lucy Taylor:

My gosh, I'm in massive overthinking territory with this.

Lucy Taylor:

I've been noodling on that.

Lucy Taylor:

Oh, I think it is on the thesis and already, what a fun word.

Lucy Taylor:

Right?

Lucy Taylor:

It's, uh, it's bread surrounding a filling of some sort.

Lucy Taylor:

So for me, that's a sandwich.

Lucy Taylor:

Wholeheartedly.

Lucy Taylor:

Yes.

Lucy Taylor:

What do Yeah,

Tzuki Stewart:

No, it's not a sandwich.

Tzuki Stewart:

It's a hot dog.

Tzuki Stewart:

It's a completely different thing.

Lucy Taylor:

So what hot dog is it?

Lucy Taylor:

Same category,

Tzuki Stewart:

Yeah,

Lucy Taylor:

but a category of one.

Tzuki Stewart:

A category of one.

Tzuki Stewart:

Yeah.

Tzuki Stewart:

Amen.

Tzuki Stewart:

Thank you so much for listening today.

Tzuki Stewart:

If you enjoy this episode, please do rate and review as it really

Tzuki Stewart:

helps us to reach other listeners.

Tzuki Stewart:

We are releasing episodes every two weeks, so do hit subscribe

Tzuki Stewart:

to ensure that you don't miss out on more playful inspiration.

Tzuki Stewart:

Don't forget, you can find us@www.whyplayworks.com or

Tzuki Stewart:

wherever you get your podcasts.

Tzuki Stewart:

If you'd like to join our growing community of People United by the idea

Tzuki Stewart:

of play at work, you can sign up to the Playworks Collective on our homepage

Lucy Taylor:

If you have any ideas for future episodes, topics you'd love

Lucy Taylor:

to hear about, guest suggestions or questions about the work we do with

Lucy Taylor:

organizations, we'd love to hear from you.

Lucy Taylor:

Your feedback really matters to us, so please drop us a

Lucy Taylor:

line@hellowhyplayworks.com.

Lucy Taylor:

We'll be back in a fortnight with a brand new guest and we hope you'll join us.

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About the Podcast

Why Play Works.
Let's radically reshape work.
Do you have a niggling feeling, a secret hope, that work could be more joyful, more fun and (maybe) a little bit wilder? Do you sense deep down that doing great work doesn't need to be a slog?

In Why Play Works, Lucy Taylor and Tzuki Stewart hear the stories of people who are radically reshaping the idea of work as play - from play practitioners to academics to organisations who take play seriously.

How can working on serious problems be fun and delightful? Is play the opposite of work, or is it actually how we unlock success? How can reconnecting to our playfulness create more fulfilling and enlivening experiences of work?

We investigate how we can harness the power of play to boost resilience, improve well-being and foster collaboration, connection and creativity in the way we work.

About your hosts

Lucy Taylor

Profile picture for Lucy Taylor
Lucy is the founder of Make Work Play, an organisation on a mission to use the power of play to help organisations unfurl their potential. She is a passionate believer in the power of playful working as a way of bringing the best out in people, creating flow and unleashing creativity.

Lucy designs and leads playful processes which help teams unleash their individual and collective magic. Her approach to facilitation is immersive, playful and creative. Make Work ‘ Playshops’ are a space for you to get the hard work done together in a way that feels enlivening and fun.

Lucy has held positions as Visiting Faculty on MSc Programmes at Ashridge Business School and the Metanoia Institute. She studied PPE at Oxford and has trained in Systemic Coaching and Constellation Mapping, improvisational theatre and puppetry.

Tzuki Stewart

Profile picture for Tzuki Stewart
Tzuki is co-founder of Playfilled, which she brought to life in 2020 with Pauline McNulty to help forward-thinking businesses transform for high performance by filling their culture with purposeful play - the missing piece of the puzzle to increase creativity, collaboration, and continuous learning.

A culture consultancy at the intersection of new ways of working, organisational development and employee experience strategy, Playfilled supports leaders looking to rise to the challenge of changing expectations of work. They offer leadership talks, workshops and change programmes.

Tzuki previously worked in consulting and investment management, and completed an MBA from Warwick Business School in 2019 (timed to coincide with a newborn and toddler "because babies sleep a lot"... that turned out to be a bit of a fallacy!)