Episode 13

full
Published on:

29th May 2023

Pringles, the gift that keeps on giving

Ace thinks play is wonderful. He sees it as explorative and unstructured, where we scan the world in which we exist and see all of the opportunities to push, prod, dig and learn.

Scott thinks play is annoying and that playfulness is where it’s at.  

Despite disagreeing on these fundamentals Scott and Ace work together at Envoy providing executive guidance; supporting partnership negotiations; facilitating leadership retreats; guiding strategic planning; and mediating conflict.  

They teach these disciplines through talks, workshops, and executive programs.

In this episode, we delve into the power of building momentum and playfulness (or play) in the way we work work. Our guests share experiences and thoughts on how intentional and regular doses of play and laughter can transform our approach to challenges and create a positive environment where different kinds of conversations can emerge.

Their work involves building partnerships and exploring the intersection of technology, behavioral economics, and psychology. While Scott and Ace are experts in handling tough conversations they bring a lightness and playfulness to the way they do it  - they take the work seriously but not themselves. 

Discussion Highlights:

  • When a stickman starts doing the YMCA dance during a serious tech demonstration, highlighting the inherent joy of playfulness.
  • The impact of intentional play in loosening people up and facilitating discussions about opportunities, risks, and privacy in partnership contexts.
  • The importance of consistently nurturing playfulness rather than resorting to it as a last-ditch effort.
  • The value of momentum and creating space for play in our lives, allowing us to tap into it when needed most.
  • How play and playfulness can be a great way to shift energy

Things to consider

  • Is being skeptical about play at work just being a curmudgeonly bastard?
  • Where do you find flow most often?
  • When you are using your energy to deal with serious issues you don’t have the energy to take yourself seriously.
  • Building momentum and intentionally incorporating playfulness into our lives creates a reservoir of joy and resilience that we can tap into when facing challenges.
  • Play is not a desperate last resort; it's a powerful tool that should be nurtured regularly to enhance creativity, problem-solving, and overall well-being

Links

Get in touch!

Make Work Play

Playfilled

Transcript
Lucy Taylor:

Hello and welcome to the show.

Lucy Taylor:

My name's Lucy Taylor from Make Work Play an organization on a

Lucy Taylor:

mission to use the power of play to unlock potential and possibility.

Tzuki Stewart:

and I'm Zuki Stewart from Playfield, A startup helping

Tzuki Stewart:

organizations to enable everyone to rediscover their creativity through

Tzuki Stewart:

playful wonder and serendipity.

Tzuki Stewart:

Together we are.

Tzuki Stewart:

Why Playworks?

Tzuki Stewart:

The podcast that speaks to people radically reshaping

Tzuki Stewart:

the idea of work as play.

Lucy Taylor:

Today I'll be speaking to the comedy duo that is Ace Callwood

Lucy Taylor:

and Scott Wayne, directors at Envoy, a consulting firm that investigates

Lucy Taylor:

and influences human decision making, although they're reluctant to admit

Lucy Taylor:

it, there's a seam of playfulness that runs through the work they do.

Tzuki Stewart:

A spent the early part of his career building tech

Tzuki Stewart:

companies such as Painless 10 99 attacks and finance platform for

Tzuki Stewart:

freelancers and profitability.

Tzuki Stewart:

One of time magazine's top 50 sites of 2013.

Tzuki Stewart:

He's been the entrepreneur in residence at his alma Mater School

Tzuki Stewart:

of Business, a thoughtful facilitator and d e I practitioner for nearly

Tzuki Stewart:

a decade and has held several board positions across nonprofit,

Tzuki Stewart:

government and academic entities.

Tzuki Stewart:

A teacher skills such as aligning motives for success and connection,

Tzuki Stewart:

integrating d e I into core business functions, generating ideas for optimal

Tzuki Stewart:

solutions, and building deep partnerships.

Lucy Taylor:

Scott having developed his craft in international relations

Lucy Taylor:

at the London School for Economics and Georgetown University's.

Lucy Taylor:

Foreign service works through the realms of finance, award-winning consultancy

Lucy Taylor:

firms, and representing the interest of the British government as a diplomat.

Tzuki Stewart:

at the center of it all is Scott's obsession with

Tzuki Stewart:

investigating the why of decisions and shaping them for better outcomes.

Tzuki Stewart:

He's dedicated to investigating opportunities.

Tzuki Stewart:

Building partnerships and negotiating outcomes that provide

Tzuki Stewart:

stability and fuel growth.

Tzuki Stewart:

His engagements teach conflict navigation, stakeholder research,

Tzuki Stewart:

building strategic alliances, and empathetic communication among others.

Lucy Taylor:

In this episode, we explore how play can loosen people

Lucy Taylor:

up to allow for a different kind of conversation to take place, play as

Lucy Taylor:

a form of energy, and how Pringles can be the gift that keeps on giving.

Lucy Taylor:

So Ace and Scott, welcome to the show.

Lucy Taylor:

It is so nice to have you here.

Lucy Taylor:

How you doing?

Scott and Ace:

Good.

Scott and Ace:

Thanks for having us.

Scott and Ace:

Thank you.

Scott and Ace:

Lucy and Lucy, thank you for making this podcast because today is clothing optional

Scott and Ace:

day at the studio, and um, so everybody's just benefiting from this being audio.

Scott and Ace:

Are we allowed to say we've opted out clothing or was that

Scott and Ace:

just implied and I could've

Lucy Taylor:

So I see we, we've like

Scott and Ace:

let's say things that are,

Lucy Taylor:

started as we need to go on.

Scott and Ace:

Suddenly, she's like, let's do that again.

Scott and Ace:

Let's do that from the top.

Lucy Taylor:

No, no.

Lucy Taylor:

Let's keep going, please.

Lucy Taylor:

So listener, just to let you know, I can see their video,

Lucy Taylor:

even though you can't see it.

Lucy Taylor:

It's not a good sight.

Scott and Ace:

You're, you're welcome.

Scott and Ace:

By, uh, to, to both Lucy and listeners for whatever vantage

Scott and Ace:

point you have, you're all welcome.

Lucy Taylor:

Poor listener, lucky listener.

Lucy Taylor:

Yeah.

Lucy Taylor:

Let's go.

Lucy Taylor:

So I'd love it if we could start by you telling me what the word

Lucy Taylor:

play or playfulness means to you.

Scott and Ace:

I would imagine we thought the same thing

Scott and Ace:

when that question was posed.

Scott and Ace:

Um, no.

Scott and Ace:

I, I, for me, play, play is exploration, , and un unstructured often.

Scott and Ace:

scanning the world in which we exist and seeing all of the opportunities

Scott and Ace:

to push and prod and dig and learn.

Scott and Ace:

Um, and that, that sounds, I think, heady.

Scott and Ace:

Uh, but that's properly how I think about playing.

Scott and Ace:

It's just what might.

Scott and Ace:

What could be, what might be, and can we go find that out, um, in whatever

Scott and Ace:

way feels appropriate right now.

Scott and Ace:

So it's part spontaneity, part exploration, and, and, uh, that's how

Scott and Ace:

I think about it or feel it at least.

Scott and Ace:

I think they're different.

Scott and Ace:

Okay.

Scott and Ace:

I, I think of play as sort of little annoying actually.

Scott and Ace:

Huh.

Scott and Ace:

And playfulness being wonderful.

Scott and Ace:

So I think players like, okay, everybody we're gonna play Now.

Scott and Ace:

I think of playgrounds at school, primary school, every,

Scott and Ace:

everybody's gotta go out and play.

Scott and Ace:

And you'd sort of go do those things that you're, you know, games.

Scott and Ace:

Mm-hmm.

Scott and Ace:

Which is fun, but it's more like a sport.

Scott and Ace:

You play a sport, you play a board game, you play a video game,

Scott and Ace:

but playfulness, it's like, oh, I'm just, I'm toying with it.

Scott and Ace:

There might be something in this, like, let's see if there's something.

Scott and Ace:

And even actually thinking of as a kid.

Scott and Ace:

Mm-hmm.

Scott and Ace:

I think playfulness is more fun than play.

Scott and Ace:

Play Playfulness is like, oh, could we build a ENT out of these sticks?

Scott and Ace:

Down in the farmer's field play is just, oh, we're just running around playing tag.

Scott and Ace:

I think, I think you're completely wrong.

Scott and Ace:

What shock us?

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

No, I, I think it's the i playfulness is the, that's the forced fake, like we're

Scott and Ace:

not getting the work done kind of thing.

Scott and Ace:

And play for me can be in the context of.

Scott and Ace:

Your environment, you're setting.

Scott and Ace:

And so I, I think play as applied to work is more interesting

Scott and Ace:

to me than playfulness.

Scott and Ace:

Well it's interesting.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah, cuz I think we're both leaning into how this has being come to

Scott and Ace:

hack me phrases, isn't that, that everybody's, oh we need to be more

Scott and Ace:

playful, we need more like, play at work.

Scott and Ace:

And it's sort of like insert innovation five years ago or empathy

Scott and Ace:

for the past couple of years.

Scott and Ace:

We just need to empathize more now.

Scott and Ace:

Let me tell you what I want.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

Great job there.

Scott and Ace:

Alright.

Scott and Ace:

The Innovation Committee.

Scott and Ace:

I always loved those.

Scott and Ace:

Okay.

Scott and Ace:

Well, the Chief Happiness Officer, have you been into a building where

Scott and Ace:

they have one of those and it's some miserable looking receptionist?

Lucy Taylor:

so Scott, you sound like a bit of a, you sound like a

Lucy Taylor:

bit of a skeptic about play at work.

Lucy Taylor:

Tell me about that.

Scott and Ace:

I think you mispronounced curmudgeony bastard, but yeah.

Scott and Ace:

like, was that the right answer?

Scott and Ace:

Well, cause it's like, it's a bit like saying something.

Scott and Ace:

Everybody's like sort of bought into this like, quality of

Scott and Ace:

employee engagement and stuff.

Scott and Ace:

It's, I, I think it's separate.

Scott and Ace:

I think there's, there's time for creativity, but I'm not

Scott and Ace:

totally sold and Lucy will probably yell at me at some point.

Scott and Ace:

On like on work being, work, being play.

Scott and Ace:

Cuz I think leisure is play and work is work.

Scott and Ace:

That's why I get paid for it.

Scott and Ace:

I know, I, I don't mean that in that I want work to be enjoyable and I

Scott and Ace:

want work to be satisfying, but I am a little bit of a, and I guess that

Scott and Ace:

a lot of it becomes definitionally around what we mean by these phrases

Scott and Ace:

of play and playfulness that.

Scott and Ace:

The idea that there's a massive difference between a great place to

Scott and Ace:

work and a great place to do great work.

Scott and Ace:

And I think they're very different and we don't talk about the difference

Scott and Ace:

enough, a great place to work.

Scott and Ace:

It's like, oh, and I get, I get free breakfast and free lunch and there's

Scott and Ace:

a, there's a baby foot table and air hockey and you know, we get these

Scott and Ace:

interesting, we do karaoke, happy hours and whatever else, which actually

Scott and Ace:

sounds hell to me, honest, but,

Scott and Ace:

but I also think Silicon Valley, No.

Scott and Ace:

Well, but I'm not sure it's commo.

Scott and Ace:

I, I present it as commo.

Scott and Ace:

I'm gonna enjoy that.

Scott and Ace:

I'm not sure it's commo.

Scott and Ace:

I think it's a little bit about that sometimes these play playful environments,

Scott and Ace:

these fun environments are used to disguise really meaningless work.

Scott and Ace:

I think there's a correlation between companies, especially tech

Scott and Ace:

companies that have all of these.

Scott and Ace:

Like benefits and presenters being really fun, meaningful work,

Scott and Ace:

but really they're disguising.

Scott and Ace:

It's just very tedious code you're writing that is transferring wealth

Scott and Ace:

from one place to another, not really making a big difference,

Lucy Taylor:

I think you are onto something really interesting

Lucy Taylor:

there cuz I would agree.

Lucy Taylor:

I think it can mask a lot and I think there's something really interesting

Lucy Taylor:

about purpose and thing and work, feeling like play, not in the gimmicky

Lucy Taylor:

sense, but in that sense of like, Flow and where it feels easy and enlivening.

Scott and Ace:

Flo, you said, oh God, here, you just gave

Scott and Ace:

him a soapbox on your podcast.

Scott and Ace:

No, but we can we, can we play with this because.

Scott and Ace:

as much as like we talked too clear, you just said, can we play with this?

Scott and Ace:

Not, can we be playful around?

Scott and Ace:

I did tonight.

Scott and Ace:

But that's so, I think that's okay.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah, no, I did, that's a great point As much as I'm a curmudgeon,

Scott and Ace:

we laugh at work all the time.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

Like I talk about, I wish there were recruitment websites where,

Scott and Ace:

you know, you rate how much you like the boss and whether you

Scott and Ace:

feel included in all those things.

Scott and Ace:

And it just had a scale of like, how often do you laugh?

Scott and Ace:

Mm-hmm.

Scott and Ace:

And laughter just, we just laugh all the time.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

Or, or frequently.

Scott and Ace:

Not all the time.

Scott and Ace:

And we work on some really serious stuff.

Scott and Ace:

And very sensitive stuff, but, but the humor doesn't, it's not a jolly

Scott and Ace:

laughter, I, I think the, I think these words are fascinating difference

Scott and Ace:

but flow where you are playing flow, where you're like playing an instrument

Scott and Ace:

as part of an orchestra or you are playing a sports game and it, you just

Scott and Ace:

connect with the rest of the team.

Scott and Ace:

That's an interesting, where, where do you find flow most often, do you think?

Scott and Ace:

In the room when we're facilitating, especially if there's two facilitators.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah, I literally, I was at a Hanukkah party last night and had this conversation

Scott and Ace:

about having two facilitators and Lucy, you and I have, have had the pleasure

Scott and Ace:

of doing some work together and what I find is really smart people who.

Scott and Ace:

the, the way you said, but can we play with that for a second?

Scott and Ace:

Mm-hmm.

Scott and Ace:

Like, that is how I think of play when I say exploration.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

It's Can we dig, can we prod, can we go further into that without knowing what

Scott and Ace:

the end goal is going to be, or without knowing what we're gonna glean from it.

Scott and Ace:

But there is something interesting there.

Scott and Ace:

Can we go play with it?

Scott and Ace:

Like that's how I think And that's why you don't like playful cuz it's too light.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

Playful is not, is not serious.

Scott and Ace:

Like for me, play as an extension.

Scott and Ace:

And so even when you said, uh, work is work and leisure is not, I disagree.

Scott and Ace:

I, but I, I, when I talked about scanning, it's because I see the world as there's

Scott and Ace:

an opportunity to inform how we exist.

Scott and Ace:

And how we hone and how we get better.

Scott and Ace:

Every, when I'm driving my vintage truck, it's, that's play for me, but that's also

Scott and Ace:

informing how you have to listen to the thing and know where it's going, which

Scott and Ace:

informs how I go into a room with clients as we're facilitating and you listen

Scott and Ace:

and you wait, and you just like feel.

Scott and Ace:

The thing like that for me is all, all of that connectivity is play.

Scott and Ace:

And so I I, we were talking before the podcast, the three of us, about.

Scott and Ace:

Not unplugging well, or at least I don't, I don't get the holiday.

Scott and Ace:

I'm an American, so you know, I just work all the time.

Scott and Ace:

Um, but, but what I define as work, like being in the motorcycle shop

Scott and Ace:

here at the office, again, motorcycle shop in our office, for me, going

Scott and Ace:

out there and tinkering Sure, I'll take a client call, but I'll like.

Scott and Ace:

Fix the machine.

Scott and Ace:

And that's recharging.

Scott and Ace:

It's recalibrating.

Scott and Ace:

It's not time off.

Scott and Ace:

I'm working on a thing.

Scott and Ace:

But it is fun.

Scott and Ace:

It's exploration, it's scanning, it's informing, learning and playing.

Scott and Ace:

And so like that interconnectivity, I think, lends itself to flow.

Scott and Ace:

Knowing the two of you, I know you're constantly inhaling.

Scott and Ace:

Just things from your environment and that informs how we can play and where

Scott and Ace:

flow I think happens when, when I'm feeling flow working with the two of you.

Scott and Ace:

That's, that's kind of where it comes from.

Scott and Ace:

I think.

Lucy Taylor:

Yeah, I,

Scott and Ace:

Can we pause for a minute?

Scott and Ace:

I hadn't realized you were American.

Scott and Ace:

Are you an American?

Scott and Ace:

I, well, bloody help.

Scott and Ace:

Depends on who's asking.

Scott and Ace:

Okay.

Scott and Ace:

Sorry, Lucy.

Lucy Taylor:

Were you gonna say something, Scott?

Lucy Taylor:

Always.

Scott and Ace:

I was gonna say, I'm realizing that one, I'm,

Scott and Ace:

I'm full of nonsense, aren't I?

Scott and Ace:

Cuz I said separating, you know, work from leisure and we had just

Scott and Ace:

been having a conversation before this call about how I don't like

Scott and Ace:

taking time off cuz I love my work.

Scott and Ace:

Um, but I'm maybe what I'm, maybe what I'm wrestling with is mediocrity.

Scott and Ace:

Mm.

Scott and Ace:

Is that, is, that's why I was intrigued by your hard play versus playfulness.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

Is that we are drowning in.

Scott and Ace:

We really are just drowning in mediocrity.

Scott and Ace:

We are like corporately.

Scott and Ace:

We societally.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

Corporately particularly, we've become like the chain restaurant, the good

Scott and Ace:

chain restaurant in instead of the neighborhood diner or greasy spoon and

Scott and Ace:

the boutique restaurant, we've just like landing in the middle and claiming

Scott and Ace:

it's the best and it's not, it's dire.

Scott and Ace:

And so I talk about this, like I, I talk a lot about the

Scott and Ace:

slot, like the, the people who.

Scott and Ace:

Declare that they're creative or innovative tend to be just upper

Scott and Ace:

mediocre and we are restricting.

Scott and Ace:

And maybe that's my pushback.

Scott and Ace:

It's the idea of like forced fun versus giving people the tools

Scott and Ace:

to really dive into something.

Scott and Ace:

That's how you are using play.

Scott and Ace:

Get into it.

Scott and Ace:

It's okay.

Scott and Ace:

Make some mistakes, push it around.

Scott and Ace:

Um, versus the and yeah, but that's never resonated with

Lucy Taylor:

No, and I love that idea of using play or, or play as a

Lucy Taylor:

means of achieving something great.

Lucy Taylor:

So finding your way into that state that allows you to do something great.

Lucy Taylor:

And I'm really interested cuz you, I know you at Envoy do great work

Lucy Taylor:

and it's really, and when I met you I was like, who are these?

Lucy Taylor:

This, what is this comedy duo?

Lucy Taylor:

They were facilitating an a very serious online meeting and I said to my

Lucy Taylor:

colleague, man, we've gotta up our game.

Lucy Taylor:

Like they were, you were, you know, had this great, very, in my

Lucy Taylor:

view, playful rapport going on.

Lucy Taylor:

Um, so it's really interesting to me that you don't naturally associate

Lucy Taylor:

yourselves as being playful.

Lucy Taylor:

Cuz I immediately were like, these guys are so playful.

Scott and Ace:

So there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a well

Scott and Ace:

documented phenomenon of comics being.

Scott and Ace:

Depressive.

Scott and Ace:

Right.

Scott and Ace:

That's a thing.

Scott and Ace:

And I, it's interesting because I, when you asked us to do this podcast, I was

Scott and Ace:

like, oh yeah, we'll do this cuz we're, we're always laughing and joking around.

Scott and Ace:

And then I started thinking about it.

Scott and Ace:

I was actually, I, I actually find this quite a serious subject.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

And that it's being, there's a risk of it being bastardized and industrialized.

Scott and Ace:

But yes, so we walk in every morning, we see each other six days a week, probably,

Scott and Ace:

probably on average, and talk eight.

Scott and Ace:

The, the retort is always one of us saying, good morning, darling.

Scott and Ace:

The other good morning honey, which often makes lights.

Scott and Ace:

It's very nervous when he see us in the room.

Scott and Ace:

Um, but it's sort of just setting that tone of there are gonna

Scott and Ace:

be things that are passing.

Scott and Ace:

Our messaging systems emphasis on that because we don't even have client

Scott and Ace:

senders emails for most of the stuff.

Scott and Ace:

It's on encrypted systems because it's very, very delicate, sensitive, often in

Scott and Ace:

international affairs or it's marketly sensitive, very serious stuff, and it's

Scott and Ace:

sort of setting this tone of there's only enough energy if we're gonna take

Scott and Ace:

the issues really, really seriously.

Scott and Ace:

We don't have time to take ourselves seriously.

Scott and Ace:

No, we don't have the the, the energy bandwidth.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah, the mental energy.

Scott and Ace:

Or the intellectual energy.

Scott and Ace:

Or the emotional energy to take ourselves too

Scott and Ace:

seriously.

Scott and Ace:

And, um, I see that as an in an inadvertent competitive advantage

Scott and Ace:

relative to our competitors who take themselves very bloody.

Scott and Ace:

Seriously.

Lucy Taylor:

Um,

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

No, no

Lucy Taylor:

yeah, that's really interesting to me.

Lucy Taylor:

So you are taking the work really seriously and not taking yourselves

Lucy Taylor:

seriously, one as a means of protecting your own energy.

Lucy Taylor:

But I feel like in doing that, you are unlocking something.

Lucy Taylor:

Like, what do you think?

Lucy Taylor:

That approach unlocks in groups and insensitive situations.

Scott and Ace:

for one, I, I, I'd put maybe 90% on energy conservation.

Scott and Ace:

10% is propaganda.

Scott and Ace:

Um, 10% is, Hey, nobody else would do this.

Scott and Ace:

But because of the caliber and the kinda types of work we do, the

Scott and Ace:

fact that we did that ridiculous thing and got away with it.

Scott and Ace:

Actually gives us another leg up.

Scott and Ace:

So to Scott's like, I'm, I'm just gonna own that.

Scott and Ace:

Like, it's at least partially propaganda.

Scott and Ace:

I know that if we pull this off, if we thread the needle, well if we get away

Scott and Ace:

with it, that's better for our business.

Scott and Ace:

So like, yeah.

Scott and Ace:

Let me just, let me own that.

Scott and Ace:

There's like a, if you are, if you are, I think there's something, if you are

Scott and Ace:

confident enough to be fools publicly and.

Scott and Ace:

Humiliate yourself, humiliate yourselves.

Scott and Ace:

We never humiliate other people.

Scott and Ace:

Then you must be really, really good at what you do.

Scott and Ace:

Now that's up for debate.

Scott and Ace:

That might just be spin.

Scott and Ace:

We might be playing this.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

But I do think that comes across and for the, for the counterparts

Scott and Ace:

we work with those grants management consultants and strategy consultants

Scott and Ace:

and investment bankers that are frequently in the rooms that we're in.

Scott and Ace:

It is, it does make you vulnerable when you are taking yourself really

Scott and Ace:

seriously, cuz the slightest chip.

Scott and Ace:

In that armor and you are humiliated.

Scott and Ace:

Whereas if, um, if we are not, if we're able to laugh at ourselves early in

Scott and Ace:

a boardroom session or whatever we're working on, then expectations are set.

Scott and Ace:

The quality work is gonna be great.

Scott and Ace:

I wanna be very specific about how minimal that propaganda piece is.

Scott and Ace:

I think it's just innate to me at least.

Scott and Ace:

I won't speak to Scott, although I know his humor.

Scott and Ace:

And so there's like a slapstick element to Scott.

Scott and Ace:

Scott laughs the most when somebody has gotten hurt.

Scott and Ace:

And that's, somebody is often me.

Scott and Ace:

He's dying right now.

Scott and Ace:

Like there is nothing funny, right?

Scott and Ace:

Somebody walking into something is, or spilling Pringles in their bag.

Scott and Ace:

There's no better color beyond the keystone cops.

Scott and Ace:

Oh, can we talk about that though?

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

So, so just a few weeks ago, Lucy, you were supposed to be with us.

Scott and Ace:

We, we didn't manage to connect.

Scott and Ace:

We were, we, we were in Brussels.

Scott and Ace:

We're in the station.

Scott and Ace:

And, um, we were, we were exhausted, so we'd put ourself in first class on

Scott and Ace:

the Eurostar and we're in that fancy sort of business lounge, just on a gig.

Scott and Ace:

It had gone really well, big international thing, and Ace had with him a whole

Scott and Ace:

tube of Pringles and he, he opened it.

Scott and Ace:

No, it was in his bag and as I, I had opened it the night before he opened it,

Scott and Ace:

and as he pulled it out, it like the, his bag sort of caught the lip and it

Scott and Ace:

pulled the lid off and he pulled a whole tube of Pringles into his briefcase.

Scott and Ace:

This is Lucy style, and there was, there was no sound.

Scott and Ace:

It was this, this lounge was silent.

Scott and Ace:

There was no sound except for his whimper.

Scott and Ace:

He just went, yeah.

Scott and Ace:

I still, now I can barely talk.

Scott and Ace:

I was like, I was so upset.

Scott and Ace:

I was curled up on the floor.

Scott and Ace:

Like I, I laid on the floor, this business lounge, like crying, laughing in agony.

Scott and Ace:

And, but I think, but if he'd have made a big Ferrari about it, or if it was

Scott and Ace:

like a joke or it's, that's not funny.

Scott and Ace:

It's not even vaguely funny.

Scott and Ace:

It's not even on the, it's not on the land of comic.

Scott and Ace:

It's the, it's the small.

Scott and Ace:

Touches, and I think actually in facilitation, which is

Scott and Ace:

what we do, we negotiate and we mediate and we facilitate.

Scott and Ace:

Is that the really smart clients notice?

Scott and Ace:

They later drinks after a session.

Scott and Ace:

They're like, We, I saw you do that thing.

Scott and Ace:

I saw you, I saw that difficult question.

Scott and Ace:

And through the guise of racial equity, you, you, you threw a hospital

Scott and Ace:

pastor Ace coward, um, or through the guise of, you know, Britishness.

Scott and Ace:

Mm-hmm.

Scott and Ace:

You, I saw Ace, like hand you that question to deal with rather than

Scott and Ace:

him with a little twinkle in his eye.

Scott and Ace:

And that was you were playing with each other.

Scott and Ace:

and I think it does open the door practically actually, that

Scott and Ace:

type of humor to some solutions.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

But no, you say your view and I'll, I'll come back to my, wasn't you.

Scott and Ace:

Um, no, I, so I, I think all of that is really important and like

Scott and Ace:

how and when we choose to play like that active choice, right?

Scott and Ace:

Sometimes that's, Scott laughing at the fact that I just dumped Pringles.

Scott and Ace:

But to be clear, we were knackered after that gig and we were

Scott and Ace:

heading to London for another one.

Scott and Ace:

And so like we were exhausted and it was that like little moment where you

Scott and Ace:

get to choose, its intentionality there.

Scott and Ace:

You get to choose whether you're going to laugh at it.

Scott and Ace:

And to be clear, I was pissed, right?

Scott and Ace:

All I wanted was some Pringles and like I hadn't eaten and it was a

Scott and Ace:

whole thing and I didn't know what time it was and I was on different

Scott and Ace:

time zones, et cetera, et cetera.

Scott and Ace:

And Scott died.

Scott and Ace:

And you can't help but laugh at that.

Scott and Ace:

Like you have to, you can't not, and if you don't like that, talk about energy.

Scott and Ace:

Energy is not, I, I don't think, and this is gonna sound woo, like it's.

Scott and Ace:

It's not this zero sum thing.

Scott and Ace:

We get to create energy, but it's those moments when we don't want to, that

Scott and Ace:

it's actually most beneficial to do that and to like lean into, oh, that sucked.

Scott and Ace:

And so like all of that to say that choice.

Scott and Ace:

For me, I think that's what's innate, like, I don't know how not to do that.

Scott and Ace:

we were, we were in Seattle at, uh, one of the big tech companies, innovation

Scott and Ace:

labs, and they have one of, like one of those grocery stores where you can

Scott and Ace:

scan, like, it just automatically checks you out so you don't have to like use

Scott and Ace:

your card, you pull it off and they have these scanners that track human bodies.

Scott and Ace:

And I'm there.

Scott and Ace:

Hang on, hang on, hang.

Scott and Ace:

So they anonymize the data, right?

Scott and Ace:

it's this very large tech company based in Seattle.

Scott and Ace:

You choose which one it might be not, that are very, very

Scott and Ace:

large, that are called Microsoft.

Scott and Ace:

So anyway, you're in there, but.

Scott and Ace:

And it's really impressive.

Scott and Ace:

So, so they have this thing and they're, they're using cameras to track different

Scott and Ace:

bits and pieces, and they have little stick men and women to illustrate the

Scott and Ace:

humans so that it's not taking any, they're not actually filming people.

Scott and Ace:

Right.

Scott and Ace:

This is the technology that they were trying it.

Scott and Ace:

And we're we're there with a client and everybody's very serious.

Scott and Ace:

Taken it very seriously.

Scott and Ace:

Tech's taken it very seriously.

Scott and Ace:

And then on this screen, cuz we're watching ourselves, I see this stickman

Scott and Ace:

start doing Y M C A, which is this idiot, but like the full thing.

Scott and Ace:

And, but, but in my head that is, That you can't not do that, right?

Scott and Ace:

Like you, there are stick figures and it's tracking and it's brilliant technology

Scott and Ace:

and it's like it's the future of how we're going to shop and make purchase decisions.

Scott and Ace:

The behavioral economics and the psychology of all of the tech is

Scott and Ace:

fascinating and in that moment also, Yeah, you do Y M C A on the tv

Scott and Ace:

that's tracking your body movements.

Scott and Ace:

Like how could you not that, that intentionality.

Scott and Ace:

And then the last one, the, the gig that we, hang on, can we stay there because

Scott and Ace:

the energy that it releases actually talking about energy is that the team

Scott and Ace:

we are with the client are terrific.

Scott and Ace:

And it was all about their partnership with, with, in this case, Microsoft and.

Scott and Ace:

They, it loosens people up to talk about opportunity and risks of data and

Scott and Ace:

privacy and all of these things, because now we've, we've just opened it up.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

When you burn, a lot of what we do is building partnerships and so.

Scott and Ace:

And everybody in that room wanted to see how the stickman danced.

Scott and Ace:

Like it was like, you could just feel it and it took so much.

Scott and Ace:

So there's a permission thing there when you choose to play.

Scott and Ace:

The last one I'll throw out is the, the gig in Brussels that,

Scott and Ace:

uh, that you missed, Lucy.

Scott and Ace:

Um, and you know, I, I'd imagine you'd have ended up doing the thing that I did.

Scott and Ace:

So I was channeling you.

Scott and Ace:

When I did it, um, kind of sorta, and you, you can decide if that's

Scott and Ace:

a compliment or not, right?

Scott and Ace:

Because we, we did that question, the very serious, heavy question

Scott and Ace:

of what, um, how, how do, how, how do we phrase the question, what

Scott and Ace:

might somebody not know about you?

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

It's some, share something about yourself that's people in this room, there we go.

Scott and Ace:

Don't know about you.

Scott and Ace:

And so we asked a very serious audience of like really seasoned travelers, et

Scott and Ace:

cetera, and executives and, uh, people were, they were being playful to start.

Scott and Ace:

Right?

Scott and Ace:

Mm-hmm.

Scott and Ace:

Versus playing, they were being playful.

Scott and Ace:

And so there were like very benign things playing.

Scott and Ace:

I play the tambourine and I like, I know how to juggle, and

Scott and Ace:

then somebody says, I love sex.

Scott and Ace:

And then somebody else, couple prompts later goes, I love sex too.

Scott and Ace:

And there's like this natural inflection point where you get to

Scott and Ace:

decide as a facilitator, somebody on stage how to handle that.

Scott and Ace:

And so my, my response was really simple, but I kind of looked at Scott and it was

Scott and Ace:

at half a second of thinking about it.

Scott and Ace:

It was, uh, I read the two out.

Scott and Ace:

I was like, I love sex.

Scott and Ace:

I love sex too.

Scott and Ace:

And then I kind of looked at the audience who was getting ready to go to a happy

Scott and Ace:

hour together, and all I said is, I will see you at the happy hour later.

Scott and Ace:

And like you say that to the audience and it shifts energy from, oh, we're

Scott and Ace:

being playful to, okay, we can play and be real about this thing because

Scott and Ace:

we've just been given permission to go.

Scott and Ace:

And it was around that moment.

Scott and Ace:

The people went deep and then, yeah, what came after that

Scott and Ace:

was, I suffer from anxiety.

Scott and Ace:

I have depression.

Scott and Ace:

I was abused as a child.

Scott and Ace:

I'm having suicidal thoughts, which it, it opened the space up for people to.

Scott and Ace:

To your point, go deep.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

And then we are able to say, Hey, when we said we'll see you later, that's

Scott and Ace:

not just for those, that's for those who have something deeply on your mind.

Scott and Ace:

We will be there.

Scott and Ace:

Walk up there.

Scott and Ace:

There are lots of resources for you through this group and association.

Scott and Ace:

And also for those of you who love sex, we'll definitely be there later.

Scott and Ace:

And you're sort of combining that jumping.

Scott and Ace:

So it's back to my mediocre point is never land, never ever land in the middle.

Scott and Ace:

Like you are either the neighborhood restaurant or you're the boutique

Scott and Ace:

restaurant, but you're never the chain.

Scott and Ace:

And most shit's just,

Scott and Ace:

yeah, chain.

Scott and Ace:

Most stuff on LinkedIn is chain.

Scott and Ace:

Most stuff on most, most white papers issued by companies are this, oh my

Scott and Ace:

God, mediocre, mind numbing bullshit.

Scott and Ace:

They're done.

Scott and Ace:

And most of the.

Scott and Ace:

And it's all based upon, like we can predict the future.

Scott and Ace:

And this is where the trend's completely ignoring the fact that

Scott and Ace:

every significant event over the past five years have changed things.

Scott and Ace:

Nobody predicted, like nobody predicted any of this stuff.

Scott and Ace:

And if we issued retractions for smartness, So if we, if you had to

Scott and Ace:

say, oh, that report I wrote five years ago didn't forecast these

Scott and Ace:

things, nobody would ever report.

Scott and Ace:

Nobody would ever report, read any of these trend magazines versus if you

Scott and Ace:

can say, actually, I don't know, which I think is a big part of playfulness.

Scott and Ace:

Mm-hmm.

Scott and Ace:

Right.

Scott and Ace:

I actually, I don't know, but let's prepare for the fact we don't know

Scott and Ace:

and look at some different, and there's lots of examples in history.

Scott and Ace:

Of that playing with an idea resulting in, in a great outcome.

Scott and Ace:

One of the most famous is during the Cuban Missile Crisis, where there was

Scott and Ace:

this, if you, if you read the papers around what was happening, this escalation

Scott and Ace:

between the Soviet Union and the United States and was really close to nuclear

Scott and Ace:

conflict, and Robert Kennedy, who was the.

Scott and Ace:

Obviously president of the brother of the President, but also the attorney

Scott and Ace:

general came up with this idea that they would just pretend they hadn't received

Scott and Ace:

this lesser of threat from the Soviets.

Scott and Ace:

They just act like it hadn't shown up in the mail.

Scott and Ace:

And there's an argument that that playful idea saved the world.

Scott and Ace:

It allowed for a deescalation.

Scott and Ace:

And I think we spend a lot of time suggesting to clients

Scott and Ace:

that we don't do anything.

Scott and Ace:

Mm-hmm.

Scott and Ace:

Which I think only comes from being able to think.

Scott and Ace:

Not think differently, just think broadly about something.

Scott and Ace:

It's not thinking differently, it's actually thinking of exactly the same way.

Scott and Ace:

Just taking a broader expanse of, of inputs and the where

Scott and Ace:

you like, well one action would actually be to not do anything.

Scott and Ace:

Just let this play out, hold the line, et cetera.

Scott and Ace:

And that's not always our advice.

Scott and Ace:

Often it's to disrupt things, but that's rarely presented in an opinion.

Lucy Taylor:

I wanna come back to something that you said before

Lucy Taylor:

about this kind of dance between holding things really lightly.

Lucy Taylor:

The comment about, I'll see you in the bar later and then.

Lucy Taylor:

Going somewhere that's like really tender and that requires

Lucy Taylor:

a lot of compassion and holding.

Lucy Taylor:

Cuz I think, yeah, there is this interplay between those two things, isn't there?

Lucy Taylor:

The kind of open play as like an open or playfulness as an opener and humor

Lucy Taylor:

as an opener in order to go deep.

Lucy Taylor:

And I know that you both do a lot of d and i de and I work and

Lucy Taylor:

you have found quite a playful.

Lucy Taylor:

Way into that, and I'd love just to hear a little bit about how you do that

Lucy Taylor:

and how you play with that dynamic.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

Um, yeah, the d n I work is, is fascinating and I wanna kind of set

Scott and Ace:

the stage for where we are right now, cuz that'll contextualize

Scott and Ace:

the, how the work happens.

Scott and Ace:

Um, budgets, budgets are getting slashed across, I don't know, my country.

Scott and Ace:

Um, I'd imagine, and I'd seen similarly across Europe, Lucy, and my country

Scott and Ace:

is basic bankrupt, so you can buy it.

Scott and Ace:

10.

Scott and Ace:

Which one of you is on the shortlist for Prime Minister?

Scott and Ace:

It's Lucy.

Scott and Ace:

Certain Next week.

Scott and Ace:

On the week after.

Scott and Ace:

There we go.

Scott and Ace:

Perfect.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

Well, nice.

Scott and Ace:

We could, I don't want to get into politics cuz then I'll

Scott and Ace:

have to look in a mirror as the Lone American on this podcast.

Scott and Ace:

Um, no, I, the, the context though budgets are particularly around DNI are

Scott and Ace:

getting slashed kind of globally Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

In, in the corners of the world that we see pretty regularly.

Scott and Ace:

Um, and then the economy is in a.

Scott and Ace:

AJ's spot at best and.

Scott and Ace:

I'm seeing a lot of folks who want to recalibrate their people to be

Scott and Ace:

better leaders into weather, the impending economic dumpster fire.

Scott and Ace:

Um, and, and so those things seem incongruent, but they're

Scott and Ace:

actually really similar work.

Scott and Ace:

And so I'm getting asked to kind of scale back on the D n I front, but up

Scott and Ace:

on the leadership development front.

Scott and Ace:

And like for me, diversity, equity, and inclusion has to be interwoven into all

Scott and Ace:

of the work that we do, like everywhere.

Scott and Ace:

Get leaders tight to get teams optimized to, to make better decisions.

Scott and Ace:

Like we have to take the lived experience of the people, uh, for

Scott and Ace:

the people we work with and around, but also the people that we serve.

Scott and Ace:

Like I have to have a lens that makes space for the way that they

Scott and Ace:

have existed in the world and their experiences, so on and so forth.

Scott and Ace:

And, and so as we go into conversations, a lot of it, and this is where

Scott and Ace:

the play gets really interesting.

Scott and Ace:

Is giving people some context and permission to open up, to start being

Scott and Ace:

candid and open and honest and real with each other so they can dial in

Scott and Ace:

the way that they work and understand the triggers that someone might have

Scott and Ace:

and the biases that might block them from being receptive to an idea.

Scott and Ace:

Um, and, and the way that they communicate with each other.

Scott and Ace:

And so, uh, Part of the, part of the playfulness, and this is when I say

Scott and Ace:

exploration and scanning, is knowing that there are going to be barriers as

Scott and Ace:

soon as I use the term d e i, in some rooms, soon as I say that term, that

Scott and Ace:

phrase, people shut down or half the room will right hyperpolarized kind

Scott and Ace:

of environment that we're existing in.

Scott and Ace:

And so like for me, part of the play is exploring what we call

Lucy Taylor:

Hmm.

Scott and Ace:

Right to, to talk or think about the Trojan horse into the d e I

Scott and Ace:

conversation, but calling it executive leadership or human human connection.

Scott and Ace:

And so like all of that around the work and how we lead into it and pulling

Scott and Ace:

the pasty Brit into the conversation to seed some of the uncomfortable questions

Scott and Ace:

that other folks might not have asked.

Scott and Ace:

Like all of those are intentional because we created space to say, Hey, d e I

Scott and Ace:

is important as a subject, as a topic.

Scott and Ace:

The terminology we might be able to play with.

Scott and Ace:

So it's better received and not neutering or making it palatable for the sake

Scott and Ace:

of the people who don't agree with it.

Scott and Ace:

But, uh, I think delivering the outcomes in a way that is going to be conducive to

Scott and Ace:

behavior change like that requires play.

Scott and Ace:

And that's, that's how I think about that corner of my work.

Scott and Ace:

You know what's interesting as you're describing that, and I'm thinking

Scott and Ace:

this is a podcast, not video, is that, You are speaking, just assuming

Scott and Ace:

people know that you're black.

Scott and Ace:

Ah.

Scott and Ace:

Because if you'd have used those words and you're a white American,

Scott and Ace:

it's just a little bit different.

Scott and Ace:

It's, yeah.

Scott and Ace:

And so that's probably worth saying is that like even that you, you use

Scott and Ace:

humor around your, uh, Racial identity.

Scott and Ace:

And then you use humor around my racial identity.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

As the pasty Brit.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

In the middle class.

Scott and Ace:

And we, so he'll run these exercises about in and out groups and who's

Scott and Ace:

in and who's out, and we rapidly discover that I'm never in an

Scott and Ace:

outgroup, even one around immigration.

Scott and Ace:

And because I'm an immigrant to the United States, I don't count because

Scott and Ace:

I'm British and try it differently, even around accent and language.

Scott and Ace:

I don't count because I speak British English and therefore see myself as

Scott and Ace:

superior, even to the 300 million natives that live in this country relative to me.

Scott and Ace:

We saw together and go, oh, I'm never ever in an outgroup.

Scott and Ace:

I'm never experienced it.

Scott and Ace:

And we joke about it and then, yeah, we joke at my cost around things that.

Scott and Ace:

White middle class men say and do, and it sort of opens it.

Scott and Ace:

I presume you do this to access white middle class men.

Scott and Ace:

Well, yeah.

Scott and Ace:

Yes, and right.

Scott and Ace:

I can, if I call you the pasty Brit, then I can land the joke, the,

Scott and Ace:

the what seems like a joke, but is not very much one that, Hey, as we

Scott and Ace:

think about in groups and outgroup.

Scott and Ace:

I'm a man, therefore I'm in the in group, but I'm a black man in America,

Scott and Ace:

therefore I'm in the outgroup, right?

Scott and Ace:

That's right on the heels of calling Scott a pasty Brit.

Scott and Ace:

And so, you know, it's almost like that peanut butter wrapped around

Scott and Ace:

the pill to give to your dog.

Scott and Ace:

Like you get to drop the hay in 2022.

Scott and Ace:

As a black man in America, I'm in the outgroup and that's like detrimental

Scott and Ace:

to my health, quite seriously.

Scott and Ace:

But also I'm working with the Brit, and so I can joke that

Scott and Ace:

he says things funny sometimes.

Scott and Ace:

And so that, like that interplay of racial demographic dynamic, it allows

Scott and Ace:

us to kinda drop the line about the thing that is actually important and

Scott and Ace:

folks onboard all of it cuz they're still kind of chuckling about the thing

Scott and Ace:

which shifted energy to a place where I could like slot the other thing in

Scott and Ace:

and it all happens at the same time.

Scott and Ace:

And that that's

Lucy Taylor:

No, and it's like happened underneath people's different, you've like

Lucy Taylor:

snuck under people's immediate defenses.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Lucy Taylor:

Yeah.

Lucy Taylor:

That's so

Scott and Ace:

yeah.

Scott and Ace:

Those immediate defenses are, yeah.

Scott and Ace:

That's kind of interesting is that how do you get people to lower their armor

Scott and Ace:

so that you can get the messages through?

Scott and Ace:

And, and Lucy, I think we've learned this from you to a large extent as well.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

And you do that through, through laughter.

Scott and Ace:

Because I, as, as I opened up this podcast, I'm very cynical about this

Scott and Ace:

space and I've seen you do the work and have been, uh, reluctantly respectful

Scott and Ace:

of the impact that it makes, which I think is probably the highest compliment

Scott and Ace:

that it's well for, for

Lucy Taylor:

like high praise coming from Scott.

Lucy Taylor:

Thank you, Scott.

Lucy Taylor:

It was said through slightly gritted teeth listener.

Scott and Ace:

It was not terrible.

Scott and Ace:

Yes.

Scott and Ace:

No, but, but that's important, right?

Scott and Ace:

Because I, I And Lucy, I know this is your podcast and you're asking us questions,

Scott and Ace:

but I'm, I'm curious, like, similar to using the term d e i, when you talk

Scott and Ace:

about play and improv, Like, do folks shut down and I'll, I'll own my bias.

Scott and Ace:

When we first connected, um, we were doing a gig for big international client.

Scott and Ace:

You were on, we were facilitating and you all came into, I think, do a like breakout

Scott and Ace:

or a, a segment for the entire group.

Scott and Ace:

And when we saw the topic, Scott and I both kind of rolled our eyes.

Scott and Ace:

Uh, and then you came on and you all were brilliant.

Scott and Ace:

And I, I mean that in the way that you lot would say it.

Scott and Ace:

Um, brilliance doesn't mean anything coming from an American.

Scott and Ace:

So I'm using the British version of brilliant.

Scott and Ace:

When I say, I thought you two were, I thought, I thought

Scott and Ace:

you all were incredible.

Scott and Ace:

Um, but like we stuck around because we kind of had to be

Scott and Ace:

there and we were keeping an eye.

Scott and Ace:

And like fell in love with the way that you approach the work and the way that

Scott and Ace:

you position and like make it accessible.

Scott and Ace:

And so I like, I felt some tension there for like, we had to be there for a thing

Scott and Ace:

that we didn't think was real and turns out like you nailed it and continue to,

Scott and Ace:

and so like I continue to learn from you, but my question is, do you see that people

Scott and Ace:

shut down when you tell 'em what you do

Lucy Taylor:

Um, thank you for the question.

Lucy Taylor:

We got that, didn't we?

Lucy Taylor:

And for, for all the, uh, for all the nice feedback.

Lucy Taylor:

Um, but yeah, absolutely.

Lucy Taylor:

Like it's a big, people feel quite icky about the web play.

Lucy Taylor:

Like there's a.

Lucy Taylor:

You know, it doesn't, na people don't naturally feel

Lucy Taylor:

like it has a place in work.

Lucy Taylor:

So part of this podcast is about like, how do we rehabilitate that concept?

Lucy Taylor:

Because I think it's a really important one.

Lucy Taylor:

And often people are like, why don't you just call it something else?

Lucy Taylor:

But we feel quite strongly that, no, we don't wanna call it something else.

Lucy Taylor:

Like it's play, it's playfulness, it needs, um, Yeah, to be rehabilitated

Lucy Taylor:

and in the past I have snuck it in and called it creativity or innovation.

Lucy Taylor:

But now I'm standing strong and I am flying the play flag quite proudly.

Lucy Taylor:

Um, but I think it does require, so when we met, I did a laughter

Lucy Taylor:

yoga session and that requires like full body mind, spirit commitment

Lucy Taylor:

cuz if you do that half-hearted.

Lucy Taylor:

Then you evoke all of those kind of feelings in people if they feel

Lucy Taylor:

like you are not in it entirely.

Lucy Taylor:

So I think coming back to the permission thing, it's about giving other people

Lucy Taylor:

permission through, like really embodying and modeling something yourselves.

Scott and Ace:

It is a delicate line, isn't it?

Scott and Ace:

I'm, I'm thinking to sort of the role you talked about bringing play back, Lucy,

Scott and Ace:

and I'm thinking of like the laughter.

Scott and Ace:

I'm from the northeast of England and the sort of laughter that is

Scott and Ace:

inherent in Indus industrial sort of settings and manufacturing.

Scott and Ace:

There's a lot of humor, but like humor can be aggressive and it can be abusive

Scott and Ace:

humor or it can be at one's cost.

Scott and Ace:

My dad was an oil rigger.

Scott and Ace:

They just, they had it, they worked in the middle of North Sea.

Scott and Ace:

It's tough work.

Scott and Ace:

It's really tough work.

Scott and Ace:

Um, but they laugh all the time.

Scott and Ace:

They were always engaging jokes and practical jokes and, um, but there's also

Scott and Ace:

this, you know, the roles of, of lawyers and the roles of political awareness.

Scott and Ace:

I think is an, it's an interesting thing to, to navigate.

Scott and Ace:

I'm sitting here thinking about, we, we signed an NDA going into that

Scott and Ace:

innovation center in Microsoft, which is, and I'm thinking, oh, should,

Scott and Ace:

should we ask Lucy to edit this?

Scott and Ace:

And it's interesting because I.

Scott and Ace:

You could then say, oh, it's a large tech company in Seattle.

Scott and Ace:

And you're like, well, um, and also the thing we're described about

Scott and Ace:

is in the public domain, you can walk into a shop in Greenwich,

Scott and Ace:

in London, in England and see it.

Scott and Ace:

Mm-hmm.

Scott and Ace:

But we, and so I'm thinking through this.

Scott and Ace:

Not in the sense of like, oh, are we in trouble?

Scott and Ace:

I'm thinking through this.

Scott and Ace:

Well, we signed an NDA that we probably didn't need an nda.

Scott and Ace:

It's actually in the public domain, but we sort of over lawyery corporate worlds.

Scott and Ace:

and maybe Microsoft will sue us for saying lovely things about

Scott and Ace:

their amazing innovation thing.

Scott and Ace:

But the, the, um, uh, but we do live in this world and I'm thinking like,

Scott and Ace:

one of the things that we do to bring laughter to serious subjects is we're

Scott and Ace:

actually quite physical with each other.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

Um, Which isn't appropriate to somebody that has not given permission to do that.

Scott and Ace:

And so it's, it's sort of we'll squeeze each other's shoulders quite a lot or

Scott and Ace:

we'll pass comment on how the other looks or will, I mean all the things

Scott and Ace:

that you should not do, but we're in the middle of a conflict mediation and it

Scott and Ace:

works beautifully to put people at ease.

Scott and Ace:

Now, it would never possibly happen where we would say that to somebody

Scott and Ace:

who's a participant in the group.

Scott and Ace:

Sure.

Scott and Ace:

But we're actually not modeling appropriate behavior if we, if we'd like.

Scott and Ace:

Fully what we don't truthful we see, you see it all the time.

Scott and Ace:

It's just owning that.

Scott and Ace:

Mm-hmm.

Scott and Ace:

But yeah, me walking in or you walking in saying, good morning

Scott and Ace:

darling, is not appropriate.

Scott and Ace:

But it, it takes the edge off the room for our practice.

Scott and Ace:

So even the d e I stuff, you approach this not as, Diversity, equity

Scott and Ace:

and inclusion, you approach it as conflict resolution between groups.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

And so you're, we're essentially doing the same thing again and again.

Scott and Ace:

Mediate, negotiate, mediate, negotiate under the, often

Scott and Ace:

under the guise of facilitation.

Scott and Ace:

But it's, it's really those two things.

Scott and Ace:

And, but that doesn't.

Scott and Ace:

That playfulness.

Scott and Ace:

Maybe one day we'll get us into trouble.

Scott and Ace:

Mm-hmm.

Scott and Ace:

Mm-hmm.

Scott and Ace:

And, and this podcast will be used as evidence in that.

Scott and Ace:

I mean, but, but there you go.

Scott and Ace:

Like, I mean, immediately you can feel the energy in this room dropping as like,

Scott and Ace:

oh yeah, we probably shouldn't do that.

Scott and Ace:

It, it's a, it's an interesting place to walk.

Scott and Ace:

It is, I think

Lucy Taylor:

It is.

Lucy Taylor:

And I was in the uh, meeting recently where there was a woman who can see

Lucy Taylor:

energy and it was quite a serious meeting.

Lucy Taylor:

And she said at the beginning it was like heavy and.

Lucy Taylor:

Heavy and dark.

Lucy Taylor:

And then as soon as we started playing, it completely shifted.

Lucy Taylor:

And there is, I think, especially when you do facilitation work, um,

Lucy Taylor:

yeah, the e managing the ebb and flow and kind of knowing when to

Lucy Taylor:

like put something in that's playful to break some of that tension.

Lucy Taylor:

I'm really interested to, hear a bit more about like the conflict resolution

Lucy Taylor:

work that you do, and do you, are there situations where actually you leave that.

Lucy Taylor:

Comedic routine at the door, or does it always kind of weave its way in?

Scott and Ace:

I, I don't know that I've ever left it.

Scott and Ace:

Mm-hmm.

Scott and Ace:

We've turned it down.

Scott and Ace:

Mm-hmm.

Scott and Ace:

We've kind of turned it on later.

Scott and Ace:

, but I don't know that I've ever gotten the recession or there wasn't a

Scott and Ace:

wisecrack or a joke or a, a nudge or a wink that like happened in the session.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

But I think, I think there's some not nows.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

So the, because afterwards we may have a drink after a session going.

Scott and Ace:

I'm really grateful you didn't land that line that I, that I could see in

Scott and Ace:

your eyes you would love to have landed.

Scott and Ace:

Mm-hmm.

Scott and Ace:

That the, of, you know, vice versa.

Scott and Ace:

, can I, can I, uh, jump on that boat?

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

Because I think that's play too.

Scott and Ace:

When you know your people, when you know your partners and the people you're

Scott and Ace:

working with, like, you cannot make the joke and you've still made the joke.

Scott and Ace:

Right.

Scott and Ace:

Like, and, and that not just for the room, it's not a broadcast,

Scott and Ace:

playful, or play all the time.

Scott and Ace:

Sometimes it's the thing that we didn't say that's hilarious because

Scott and Ace:

it should have been said or could have been said and you held like that.

Scott and Ace:

There's an inside play between or amongst a team that is tight knit and doing real

Scott and Ace:

work that like that is never not existent.

Scott and Ace:

When we're pissy and tired and like struggling, that's sometimes the thing

Scott and Ace:

that gives us that jolt of energy that's requisite to get to the finish line.

Scott and Ace:

So that's important.

Scott and Ace:

I wanna come back to energy in the conflict resolution.

Scott and Ace:

Actually, I think we use humor more than when we're, um, let's say we're giving a

Scott and Ace:

speech cuz we talk a conference and stuff.

Scott and Ace:

There's less humor there than there is in the conflict resolution.

Scott and Ace:

The.

Scott and Ace:

The convo resolution is the humor allows you to close people down

Scott and Ace:

without their egos closing down.

Scott and Ace:

And that's a lot of what you have to do.

Scott and Ace:

You have to take some of the dominant voices in the room and have them shut up.

Scott and Ace:

Mm-hmm.

Scott and Ace:

And deploying humor to do it is P the only way that I know of to do that

Scott and Ace:

without them shutting down as well.

Scott and Ace:

Because you want to close them down to create space for other people, but

Scott and Ace:

not shut them down so they disengage and start sabotaging the program.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

And humor is your asset there.

Scott and Ace:

Um, the one risk that we have, And I've realized over the past

Scott and Ace:

year we've developed a code look to remind ourselves not to do it.

Scott and Ace:

Is there are certain types that show up in these meetings and there's one

Scott and Ace:

or two that really trigger me and one or two that really trigger you.

Scott and Ace:

One overlaps the other doesn't.

Scott and Ace:

And you know, you can use humor very aggressively.

Scott and Ace:

I mean, if you can think in the moment, you can use humor to crush somebody.

Scott and Ace:

And there's times when we're tired where.

Scott and Ace:

We'll go after a person.

Scott and Ace:

And it's not really them, it's their type.

Scott and Ace:

And we have to remind each other, this is not the time to prove a point, this

Scott and Ace:

is the time to resolve this conflict.

Scott and Ace:

And when you're tired, it's harder to do that.

Scott and Ace:

There's certain, um, yeah, there's, there's uh, what do I call it?

Scott and Ace:

There's, there's Jason from New Jersey that is a certain behavior

Scott and Ace:

type in my head, and they're not always from New Jersey, and they're

Scott and Ace:

definitely not always Jason.

Scott and Ace:

But the, I have to be careful.

Scott and Ace:

That I'm wrangling that human and not that type.

Scott and Ace:

Uh, there's also the aristocrat from England that as my northern

Scott and Ace:

chip on shoulder kicks in.

Scott and Ace:

I've got to be very careful with that as well.

Scott and Ace:

Um, am I too Yeah, New Jersey and, and Hampshire.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

Both are real.

Scott and Ace:

So there's a little down, boy, not Hampshire,

Lucy Taylor:

gonna say, speaking as

Lucy Taylor:

someone from Hampshire, We seem to be on dodgy

Scott and Ace:

I was too late.

Lucy Taylor:

Maybe that was what the spiky start was

Lucy Taylor:

about.

Scott and Ace:

gets fucks.

Scott and Ace:

Oh,

Lucy Taylor:

Um,

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

I don't remember what the question was, but I hope yes.

Scott and Ace:

Oh, I wanna talk about energy.

Scott and Ace:

So, Lucy, if, if you change the word of what you do from play, I, I

Scott and Ace:

think it might be more accurate that you're in the energy business, which

Scott and Ace:

would switch even more people off.

Scott and Ace:

But I do, but it is interesting to me because the outcome of the play.

Scott and Ace:

Often is energy, isn't it?

Scott and Ace:

And I'm reminded of a friend of mine back in the uk, Jillian, Jillian

Scott and Ace:

McGee, if you're listening, Jillian and I worked together in a few places

Scott and Ace:

and she would always, she'd always leave bowls of fruit out all around

Scott and Ace:

whichever office she was managing.

Scott and Ace:

And she's like this, this stops them from doing energy spikes.

Scott and Ace:

If I just leave fresh fruit around, people will eat it and the sugars

Scott and Ace:

will keep them going through the day.

Scott and Ace:

And they don't do a lunch spike and a breakfast spike

Scott and Ace:

and a, you know, snack spike.

Scott and Ace:

And I think it's very, I think of that often actually, and I think

Scott and Ace:

about that as emotional energy in the room, is you're actually looking

Scott and Ace:

for it to stay fairly constant.

Scott and Ace:

Mm-hmm.

Scott and Ace:

You don't want people And I think humor can be, people start the day with

Scott and Ace:

high energy, they're caffeinated, they want to go late morning, it, it drops.

Scott and Ace:

And I th maybe we observe this, I suspect we inject humor at that point.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

Instinctively we do the same after lunch and we do the same

Scott and Ace:

around three 30 in the afternoon.

Scott and Ace:

Uh, And, and then of course there's a natural high when people finish.

Scott and Ace:

You don't need, we, we actually never finish with a joke.

Scott and Ace:

No, we never, ever wrap up a session.

Scott and Ace:

We, we never parachute in a joke at the end.

Scott and Ace:

Nope.

Scott and Ace:

It's often, uh, it's just very quietly.

Scott and Ace:

Can I Thank you.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah, I, so I think very visually and as we're having this conversation about

Scott and Ace:

injecting energy, like I'm thinking, you know, the Flappy Duck game.

Scott and Ace:

Or like you're trying to keep the duck up as it moves forward.

Scott and Ace:

Like that's what we do.

Scott and Ace:

We just hit the, we hit the like play button every now and

Scott and Ace:

then, and it like keeps it.

Scott and Ace:

But like that's kind of what we do through it.

Scott and Ace:

We collectively, we do through sessions and like that little hit of, uh,

Scott and Ace:

that little injection of play keeps people at a level that we can get

Scott and Ace:

the work done and get it done well.

Scott and Ace:

Um, yeah.

Scott and Ace:

No,

Lucy Taylor:

that's so interesting cause I think it definitely allows

Lucy Taylor:

us to stay the course for longer.

Lucy Taylor:

Like when we do, when we do things in a way that has humor and fun and play,

Lucy Taylor:

like I observing you folks at Envoy, my sense is that, and you've described

Lucy Taylor:

this, you have a lot of fun together.

Lucy Taylor:

Like what do you think allows that?

Lucy Taylor:

Like how does that come about?

Scott and Ace:

I think being good.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

Helps like, like for the people that we, and this hasn't always been the case.

Scott and Ace:

There are folks who haven't worked out, not because they're bad people.

Scott and Ace:

It's not an indictment of someone's character.

Scott and Ace:

It's like it just doesn't fit.

Scott and Ace:

Cuz there has to be confidence without arrogance, right?

Scott and Ace:

To know that this is what I do and I do it well, and I'm coming in and working

Scott and Ace:

alongside other people who not only do.

Scott and Ace:

Well work well, but no, they do.

Scott and Ace:

And so there's an iron sharpening iron and it, but for some reason,

Scott and Ace:

and this I haven't quite put a finger on culturally for us at

Scott and Ace:

Envoy is that it's not competitive.

Scott and Ace:

Like we're, we're not cutting each other down at the knees and

Scott and Ace:

it's not trying to take you outta the game so I can be on mine.

Scott and Ace:

Like there is very much an, an understanding that, uh, we all work

Scott and Ace:

best together when we're all on.

Scott and Ace:

And so how, I mean, I, I think maybe there's this inherent understanding

Scott and Ace:

that play keeps our energy level too.

Scott and Ace:

Um, and so it's, it's been very natural that.

Scott and Ace:

We just play partly cuz that's because we're really good at the hyper niche kind

Scott and Ace:

of corner of the world we've carved out.

Scott and Ace:

Um, and also because it makes for better work, particularly given how serious

Scott and Ace:

the work that we do can be at times.

Scott and Ace:

Mm-hmm.

Scott and Ace:

Even when we're injecting play, like I understand the repercussions of

Scott and Ace:

getting the decision in the room today.

Scott and Ace:

And that has global implications for a large corporation or an

Scott and Ace:

international nonprofit and the lives of the people that they support.

Scott and Ace:

Like, yeah, that has to be really intentional and we have to be on

Scott and Ace:

way more often than we're not.

Scott and Ace:

Um, and so that, that's the thing for me.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah, I think it is, it's back to this, this great doing great work versus

Scott and Ace:

being a great place to work and the.

Scott and Ace:

If, if, if there's a group that needs to resolve a conflict, build

Scott and Ace:

a partnership or reach an agreement, I don't think there's anybody better

Scott and Ace:

in the world at doing it than we are.

Scott and Ace:

There's lots of things that.

Scott and Ace:

We're terrible at.

Scott and Ace:

Hmm.

Scott and Ace:

Um, but, and within the team, we all know what we are best in class at.

Scott and Ace:

So between us, if we're in a room and it, it's turning into a negotiation, ace

Scott and Ace:

will instinctively move to number two.

Scott and Ace:

And I'll move to number one, if it's showing turning out to be a mediation,

Scott and Ace:

I will instinctively move to number two and he'll move to number one.

Scott and Ace:

We've got a Alex, a filmmaker we use, we use media quite a lot.

Scott and Ace:

In our work, um, is just a world class filmmaker.

Scott and Ace:

Yep.

Scott and Ace:

Uh, Fiera actually for staff is, is just one of the most fantastic

Scott and Ace:

project leaders and managers and client wranglers that you can find.

Scott and Ace:

And I think if, but.

Scott and Ace:

But you are a, you are a solid filmmaker.

Scott and Ace:

Mm-hmm.

Scott and Ace:

And if you are a filmmaker, it'd be hard to joke with you because you'd be slightly

Scott and Ace:

aware of, is this a dig at my work?

Scott and Ace:

Right.

Scott and Ace:

Whereas when we joke with Alex, he knows he's great.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

And, and to be clear, people see us because we're on stage more often.

Scott and Ace:

That laughter is within the whole team.

Scott and Ace:

All 9, 10, 12, 15, depending on how you counted it, count it, um, But

Scott and Ace:

I think it only comes from being, um, being very comfortable in your

Scott and Ace:

domain, which requires you to stay out of things that you're only good at.

Scott and Ace:

It does and deferring to others and it allows, yeah, the humor of a

Scott and Ace:

compliments really, like I'll give v a hard time our chief of staff

Scott and Ace:

for being in my shit and like for trying to solve problems immediately.

Scott and Ace:

But v knows that she preempts 90% of the problems I'm gonna have.

Scott and Ace:

Um, so I don't have them.

Scott and Ace:

Right.

Scott and Ace:

So that 10% I give her a hard time about.

Scott and Ace:

She's like, yeah, but I'm on top of everything, so I don't really care.

Scott and Ace:

Like that's funny in a way that somebody who lets a bunch of

Scott and Ace:

things fall through the cracks.

Scott and Ace:

Would be really self-conscious about and it'd be a shitty dig on my part.

Scott and Ace:

And so like that only works in the way that we like to play, which

Scott and Ace:

is not the forced family fun.

Scott and Ace:

It's the taking the piss around people that we really enjoy like that.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah, there's a dynamic there that culturally works, I think, for us.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

Sort of.

Scott and Ace:

We we're probably not sharing best practices that are good

Scott and Ace:

for larger organizations.

Scott and Ace:

I mean, quite seriously, because sort of like feedback is, So if, if Alex is

Scott and Ace:

showing us the rushes of a, of a video, cuz we, we do media with executives

Scott and Ace:

for them to communicate a point and, you know, we are way more likely

Scott and Ace:

to say, so what was running through your mind when you shot that frame?

Scott and Ace:

And that's, that's his way of receiving information, that

Scott and Ace:

99% of this was brilliant.

Scott and Ace:

And maybe we make that 1% better.

Scott and Ace:

But if, if I said to Alex, Hey, that was a really good video, mate.

Scott and Ace:

He'd be like, I know, like, what?

Scott and Ace:

But how are we gonna make it better?

Scott and Ace:

Of course, it was a really good video.

Scott and Ace:

I did it.

Scott and Ace:

Like, how are we gonna make it better?

Scott and Ace:

And that is not, that is not corporate culture in most corporations.

Scott and Ace:

So if I told you, you.

Scott and Ace:

Did.

Scott and Ace:

If we got out of a session or you were delivering speeches

Scott and Ace:

like, Hey, that was really good.

Scott and Ace:

You'd be like, you patronizing bastard.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

What, what can I do to make it better?

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

What I, but it's infuriating to the team.

Scott and Ace:

Cause I walk off stage in my singular question.

Scott and Ace:

I've gotten good, I wait at least 15 minutes now.

Scott and Ace:

But as I walk upstage, my question in my head is, what did I miss?

Scott and Ace:

Right?

Scott and Ace:

And so like there's an element of like, yeah, you play because you can, because

Scott and Ace:

there's enough confidence or comfort in the way that we work being good.

Scott and Ace:

How do we push to grade?

Scott and Ace:

And the laughter, I think, levels that up and kind of

Lucy Taylor:

Yeah, I love it.

Lucy Taylor:

I love this link between that you have made between play and great work.

Lucy Taylor:

And I wonder if you did have like something that's replicable or a

Lucy Taylor:

suggestion or for somebody listening, like how to inject more humor,

Lucy Taylor:

play or, or bring or bring that great work to life through play.

Lucy Taylor:

What would you say?

Lucy Taylor:

What would be your suggestion?

Scott and Ace:

Oh, I've got a, I've got a few on this.

Scott and Ace:

I, I do too, because I, I would use, I would use laughter as a

Scott and Ace:

measure of how well the organization

Lucy Taylor:

I love that.

Scott and Ace:

in the sense of, you are either laughing because something went

Scott and Ace:

really well, or you're laughing because something went catastrophically badly,

Scott and Ace:

but, Often catastrophically badly only happens if you are placing a big bet

Scott and Ace:

or you're doing something bold right?

Scott and Ace:

Which is probably great.

Scott and Ace:

Even if the outcome isn't great.

Scott and Ace:

The, the, the project, the activity was probably great.

Scott and Ace:

We don't laugh when things are just tripping up.

Scott and Ace:

Stupid stuff's happening.

Scott and Ace:

We become frustrated by that.

Scott and Ace:

And so if there isn't a lot, there wasn't a lot of left here a couple of weeks ago.

Scott and Ace:

We were like tripping over ourselves.

Scott and Ace:

We didn't have flow.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah, if, if you had a, a laugh oter, it would've been very

Scott and Ace:

low a couple of weeks ago.

Scott and Ace:

It's back now.

Scott and Ace:

We're back in our flow.

Scott and Ace:

The team's humming.

Scott and Ace:

Um, so I'd use it as a, as a gauge for that, and then I'd structure

Scott and Ace:

it as a right and a responsibility.

Scott and Ace:

You have the right to play at work.

Scott and Ace:

You have the right to laugh at work.

Scott and Ace:

You have the right to, um, have fun.

Scott and Ace:

You have the responsibility to make sure that your teammates feel.

Scott and Ace:

Solid and know where they stand.

Scott and Ace:

I'm not using the word safe and secure very, very consciously because

Scott and Ace:

people's idea of emotional safety is very different from person to person.

Scott and Ace:

But they know where, this is my belief is that they know where they stand.

Scott and Ace:

They know that they're doing good work, especially if

Scott and Ace:

they're junior to you or a peer.

Scott and Ace:

Um, and their responsibility is to carry their part of the team.

Scott and Ace:

And if you're doing that, let's play.

Scott and Ace:

Let's laugh, let's, but, but they.

Scott and Ace:

We'll be back to basics if we're not meeting that responsibility.

Scott and Ace:

And that is, that's not so fun.

Scott and Ace:

Back to basics isn't so fun.

Scott and Ace:

No, I, I agree.

Scott and Ace:

Um, so I, I, I think that's a, a very strategic lens and an

Scott and Ace:

important one, visionary incisive.

Lucy Taylor:

sprang to my mind, Scott.

Scott and Ace:

Um, uh, I'll give, I'll give a, a tactical one, like a

Scott and Ace:

thing that we might be able to do.

Scott and Ace:

Um, or behaviors we talk about.

Scott and Ace:

Mm-hmm.

Scott and Ace:

Uh, it's around worst idea, which, oh, yeah.

Scott and Ace:

I like one of my favorites.

Scott and Ace:

A lot of my work is kind of in the creativity and innovation space, the

Scott and Ace:

words that Lucy has opted not to use because her work is better than mine.

Scott and Ace:

Um, so that, that's what I took away from that.

Scott and Ace:

She's not using creativity, innovation, those are my words.

Scott and Ace:

Um, But we, we use a technique called worst idea when we're kinda walking

Scott and Ace:

people through the process of innovation.

Scott and Ace:

The anatomy of a good idea is kind of the framework that I park it in.

Scott and Ace:

Um, But worst idea, pretty self-explanatory.

Scott and Ace:

Like as you're trying to surface a way that we might accomplish

Scott and Ace:

a task or get to an outcome.

Scott and Ace:

I like intentionally create space for folks to share the dumbest way

Scott and Ace:

that they might go about doing that.

Scott and Ace:

Right.

Scott and Ace:

And we just call it worst idea.

Scott and Ace:

And it's like, let me have those.

Scott and Ace:

And I find that it shifts the energy in the room when somebody says, you

Scott and Ace:

know, I'll give them a benign scenario.

Scott and Ace:

Get so and so from one side of the river to the other side of the river.

Scott and Ace:

Everybody goes to bridge out of the gate.

Scott and Ace:

And the like takeaway is never stop at bridge right there.

Scott and Ace:

There are so many other ways to get me to the other side of this river.

Scott and Ace:

Um, and so when somebody says, you know, uh, jet ski across,

Scott and Ace:

I'm like, okay, that's fun.

Scott and Ace:

When we go to worst ideas, somebody inevitably says, well, Put 'em in a

Scott and Ace:

cannon and fire 'em over the river.

Scott and Ace:

And that's hilarious, right?

Scott and Ace:

Like there's h Larry Curly Moe, component of humor to that.

Scott and Ace:

But really it just gets people out of their own way of, I have to be very

Scott and Ace:

serious, we should build a bridge.

Scott and Ace:

It's like, no, we can evil, can evil this thing.

Scott and Ace:

Let's jump a dirt bike over the river.

Scott and Ace:

And so that worst idea, As a concept and as a process shifts energy, when people

Scott and Ace:

have hit their wall, they start laughing and we know that energy bump starts.

Scott and Ace:

I mean, you get another 10, 15 ideas just out of worst idea as a catalyst.

Scott and Ace:

It allows voices that haven't been surfaced to kind of inject.

Scott and Ace:

The thing that they were thinking, but were scared was gonna be seen as dumb.

Scott and Ace:

And then it allows the people who think they have a good idea that

Scott and Ace:

might be perceived as dumb, but they know it's good to park there.

Scott and Ace:

So like it does so much, but it's just, it's kind of positioned as, let's

Scott and Ace:

play a little bit, give me the really bad ideas that nobody's brought up.

Scott and Ace:

And I find that, that if, if an organization were to say, how

Scott and Ace:

do we start injecting play or creating space, like worst idea as

Scott and Ace:

a concept, just start seeding that.

Scott and Ace:

Hey, we now have a language.

Scott and Ace:

When I'm outside of this room and we're not ideating, I can

Scott and Ace:

still say, Hey, I'm gonna give you my worst idea and park that.

Scott and Ace:

And so it just, I find that that is a tactical, tangible thing.

Scott and Ace:

Every time you're coming with ideas, use worst idea as part

Scott and Ace:

of that ideation exercise.

Scott and Ace:

And I think that starts to shift culture as much as it gets

Lucy Taylor:

Yeah, and I love it.

Lucy Taylor:

It's a great gift.

Lucy Taylor:

It's a lovely piece of language that you can share and it's

Lucy Taylor:

generous and it, I can totally see how that would shift the energy.

Scott and Ace:

This idea of momentum because I'm, I'm trying to find a way to

Scott and Ace:

express that I don't love the holidays and I love the holidays at the same time.

Scott and Ace:

So I love the holidays and kids will have a great time.

Scott and Ace:

All of those things.

Scott and Ace:

And I kind of like twinkly lights and.

Scott and Ace:

Santa and stuff at the same time.

Scott and Ace:

I feel like the holidays you lose momentum, and as you've been talking, I've

Scott and Ace:

been thinking about how you need, like there's this movement to humor and a joke.

Scott and Ace:

So the holidays, you sort of lose momentum, I think of a joke

Scott and Ace:

like those amazing Billy Connolly standup routines where he'd be

Scott and Ace:

on for two hours and he'd start.

Scott and Ace:

The beginning of a joke, and then he'd, he'd go down a sideline and tell all

Scott and Ace:

of these different jokes, and right at the end he'd finish the punchline

Scott and Ace:

to the first joke that he started.

Scott and Ace:

And I think that there's a, there's a format with us is that things carry over.

Scott and Ace:

Mm-hmm.

Scott and Ace:

And that there's this constant movement, so, Three months from now, there's a very

Scott and Ace:

good chance that you have a rough day that we're on the gig and you go to bed

Scott and Ace:

and you pull back the sheets and there's just Pringles all over your bed, and

Scott and Ace:

I've booked the room next door for you.

Scott and Ace:

Right?

Scott and Ace:

But in of itself, like that gag.

Scott and Ace:

Isn't funny, just somebody having a bad day and sabotaging

Scott and Ace:

your room isn't funny at all.

Scott and Ace:

Somebody having a bad, somebody having a bad day.

Scott and Ace:

See somebody having a bad day, getting to your bed, being just wrecked, rolling.

Scott and Ace:

Sp and Crunch.

Scott and Ace:

Crunch.

Scott and Ace:

And then the text being the key to the room.

Scott and Ace:

Next door is in the bathroom drawer.

Scott and Ace:

Have a good night's sleep is brilliant.

Scott and Ace:

It it is, but without the momentum.

Scott and Ace:

There's no, yeah, there's no thing.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

You have to, you can't inject play as a measure of desperation or

Scott and Ace:

a kind of Hail Mary last ditch.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

Yeah.

Scott and Ace:

You have to have been building that in regularly and intentionally so

Scott and Ace:

you have it when you need it most.

Scott and Ace:

And people try to use it when they need it most without

Scott and Ace:

having created the space for it.

Scott and Ace:

Um, that I think is the truth of our work.

Scott and Ace:

Of your work.

Scott and Ace:

And probably a good time to make this bit shut up.

Lucy Taylor:

I think that is a beautiful thought to end on.

Lucy Taylor:

thank you so much as and Scott for coming on the show.

Lucy Taylor:

It's been a total pleasure and a giggle as always.

Lucy Taylor:

So how was that for you listening to our conversation?

Tzuki Stewart:

I mean, hilarious.

Tzuki Stewart:

Um, what a duo.

Tzuki Stewart:

I really want some high stakes conflict going on that I can

Tzuki Stewart:

get them in the room for.

Tzuki Stewart:

Um, I'm completely intrigued to, to kind of see them in action.

Tzuki Stewart:

yeah, amazing to hear about.

Tzuki Stewart:

But I think one thing that, um, the conversations kind of started at

Tzuki Stewart:

and circle background to you was this lovely distinction between.

Tzuki Stewart:

The difference between a great place to work, you know, an organization

Tzuki Stewart:

that has perks and benefits and there's a great environment and a place to

Tzuki Stewart:

do great work, and the really subtle nuance between those two things that

Tzuki Stewart:

that aren't necessarily the same.

Tzuki Stewart:

So I really like that distinction First up.

Lucy Taylor:

Yeah, and I quite enjoyed the fact that Scott finds play annoying.

Lucy Taylor:

Even though I think when we got under the skin of it, he changed his tune a bit.

Lucy Taylor:

But, um, that pushback, I think it's really helpful cuz I think it

Lucy Taylor:

is representative of how lots of people feel about play and all the

Lucy Taylor:

preconceptions that come with it.

Tzuki Stewart:

Mm-hmm.

Lucy Taylor:

was nice to have that challenge.

Tzuki Stewart:

Yeah, I completely agree.

Tzuki Stewart:

A challenge from a.

Tzuki Stewart:

A secret advocate, but Italian nonetheless.

Tzuki Stewart:

Um, yeah, no, there were just so many kind of really helpful nuggets

Tzuki Stewart:

I took from the conversation.

Tzuki Stewart:

One was the.

Tzuki Stewart:

The question of, can we play with that for a second?

Tzuki Stewart:

At one point that was said, and it was, it wasn't even like, Hey, here's

Tzuki Stewart:

a tool or a technique you could use.

Tzuki Stewart:

It was just in the conversation, it was us.

Tzuki Stewart:

Can we play with that for a second?

Tzuki Stewart:

And I thought, oh, that's such a simple question.

Tzuki Stewart:

Um, but it's so powerful to, and, and you could say it in kind of any

Tzuki Stewart:

environment at any meeting, you're not saying, Hey, let's, let's get up on

Tzuki Stewart:

our feet and play everyone, because that can be a, a tough ask in some

Tzuki Stewart:

scenarios, but I can't think of any.

Tzuki Stewart:

Meeting where you are discussing a challenge or a problem you're trying

Tzuki Stewart:

to solve where you couldn't say, huh?

Tzuki Stewart:

Yeah, I like that idea.

Tzuki Stewart:

Could we play with that for a second?

Tzuki Stewart:

And just what the possibilities might be if we could just ask that question.

Tzuki Stewart:

Where could that take the conversation?

Tzuki Stewart:

And it just felt such a sort of low stakes, easy entry point into using

Tzuki Stewart:

the idea of playing with an idea, um, that I think would be kind of welcoming

Tzuki Stewart:

in most sort of business interactions.

Lucy Taylor:

Yeah.

Lucy Taylor:

And that, um, I think it was Ace, he was talking about play, being

Lucy Taylor:

about the what could be, what might be that sense of possibility.

Tzuki Stewart:

Mm-hmm.

Tzuki Stewart:

Yeah, definitely.

Tzuki Stewart:

And the another thing that I, I noted Dan, was this idea of vulnerability

Tzuki Stewart:

and, and I think play and vulnerability of, of are very kind of close, close

Tzuki Stewart:

cousins, but the reference about when, when we take ourselves very seriously,

Tzuki Stewart:

we're actually more vulnerable.

Tzuki Stewart:

In their experience and that any chip in the armor is then very, very sorely felt.

Tzuki Stewart:

Whereas if we're comfortable laughing at ourselves from the off, that kind of armor

Tzuki Stewart:

isn't there to be chipped away at, and it's just, we're actually less vulnerable.

Tzuki Stewart:

And I just, I thought that really turned this idea of.

Tzuki Stewart:

Kind of being playful and putting yourself out in the world in

Tzuki Stewart:

a way that you're laughing at yourself and you're being playful.

Tzuki Stewart:

You know, often we think, well, that makes you more vulnerable.

Tzuki Stewart:

But actually it was this idea of, well, when you're wearing that armor

Tzuki Stewart:

and you are taking yourself very seriously, that's when you're really

Tzuki Stewart:

setting yourself up for vulnerability.

Tzuki Stewart:

It's like, I love that.

Tzuki Stewart:

Yeah.

Tzuki Stewart:

Kind of perverse turning on its head.

Lucy Taylor:

Yeah, and there's a Brit, there was a brittleness

Lucy Taylor:

that comes with that, isn't there?

Lucy Taylor:

That taking oneself really seriously.

Lucy Taylor:

Um,

Tzuki Stewart:

brittle.

Tzuki Stewart:

When you said brittles, I was like, mm.

Tzuki Stewart:

Peanut brittle.

Lucy Taylor:

yeah.

Lucy Taylor:

And I think also what's interesting about that was actually they're only able

Lucy Taylor:

not take themselves seriously because.

Lucy Taylor:

They've done the work and they put in the hours to know that they're

Lucy Taylor:

like really good at what they do.

Tzuki Stewart:

Yeah, that, that decoupling of taking yourself seriously and taking

Tzuki Stewart:

the work seriously, again, just, I loved hearing about that and this idea of, I.

Tzuki Stewart:

They do take their work very, very, very seriously.

Tzuki Stewart:

But it's almost like that's taken up.

Tzuki Stewart:

All the serious energy in the room or all the serious energy that's available has

Tzuki Stewart:

been taken up on the work and therefore that that seriousness has, has been paid.

Tzuki Stewart:

It's it's due course, it's due respect, and, and they've decoupled

Tzuki Stewart:

themselves from that work.

Tzuki Stewart:

Um, I found that that was, that was great to hear about.

Tzuki Stewart:

What else came up for you?

Lucy Taylor:

well, I think there's this thing about people having

Lucy Taylor:

a right to laugh and have fun, a responsibility to their teammates.

Lucy Taylor:

To make sure that they know like where they stand, that they have their back,

Lucy Taylor:

which comes down to having like all the nuts and bolts, like perfectly

Lucy Taylor:

tightened, everything's in place.

Lucy Taylor:

And then it's like the fun is the stuff that can happen on top of that.

Tzuki Stewart:

mm.

Lucy Taylor:

And I thought also, I.

Lucy Taylor:

You know, you've got these decision points as a leader where you can

Lucy Taylor:

choose if you're gonna laugh or if you're gonna, you know, blow your lid.

Lucy Taylor:

So, I mean, the Pringles example, which made me how, as I was re-listening

Lucy Taylor:

to it, um, you know, that that just sets the tone, doesn't it?

Lucy Taylor:

And I think if we have a propensity to laugh at ourselves more than we.

Lucy Taylor:

Don't, you know, I think you can really shift a dynamic within a team,

Lucy Taylor:

within an organization, especially when that comes from the leadership.

Tzuki Stewart:

Mm, totally.

Tzuki Stewart:

And, and kind of building on that point around the shifting, um, I really enjoyed

Tzuki Stewart:

hearing the reflections on energy, um, and how you were talking about the women

Tzuki Stewart:

that you'd worked with, where she could.

Tzuki Stewart:

Kind of see an energy in the room.

Tzuki Stewart:

And I was pondering on that and thinking, you know, you can always feel the energy

Tzuki Stewart:

in the room even though it's, you know, invisible to the ma, the majority of us.

Tzuki Stewart:

But it's kind of how quickly that energy can really shift through

Tzuki Stewart:

introducing a moment of play or humor or laughter as you were saying.

Tzuki Stewart:

And, and I was thinking, you know, energy is everything.

Tzuki Stewart:

Even in the most informal one-to-one interaction, how you show up in the

Tzuki Stewart:

energy you're both bringing ver you know, versus the, the, the very,

Tzuki Stewart:

um, you know, stressful, high stakes conflict resolutions that, that,

Tzuki Stewart:

that Ace and Scott be working on.

Tzuki Stewart:

I just thought, you know, what can be achieved in a room with light,

Tzuki Stewart:

warm, open, trusting, engaged energy versus what can be achieved?

Tzuki Stewart:

You know, when the energy is uncertain, it's, and you know, that's uncertainty

Tzuki Stewart:

is also part of play, but that kind of reserved, anxious, closed defensive

Tzuki Stewart:

energy, um, and just the discrepancy and the outcomes that can be achieved

Tzuki Stewart:

just down to that energy in the room and how play can be such a factor in

Tzuki Stewart:

shifting that I think is really powerful.

Lucy Taylor:

Yeah, and what they were saying about, particularly in the D

Lucy Taylor:

D E I work where they bring the play and they bring that into play between

Lucy Taylor:

their different racial profiles to the table and they poke fun at each

Lucy Taylor:

other and the playfulness of that.

Lucy Taylor:

Allows people's defenses to drop, there's laughter, and then they can sneak the

Lucy Taylor:

insights and those kind of really more punchy, um, thoughts under the defenses.

Lucy Taylor:

So like yeah, players a way in and, and as a way of aiding behavior change

Lucy Taylor:

because it lowers resistance and defense I thought was really interesting.

Tzuki Stewart:

Yeah, I'm probably, my last lasting memory from the

Tzuki Stewart:

conversation was the visceral description of, uh, Pringles in the bed and

Tzuki Stewart:

like the rollover and crunch crunch.

Tzuki Stewart:

I was just like, oh, that's so true.

Tzuki Stewart:

That's so incredibly crunchy.

Tzuki Stewart:

Can you imagine rolling over them in bed?

Tzuki Stewart:

So thank you for that.

Lucy Taylor:

Yeah, and then the idea of Scott, like just dying with

Lucy Taylor:

laughter in the other room, the glee that he's played an amazing

Tzuki Stewart:

so good.

Tzuki Stewart:

So good.

Tzuki Stewart:

Thank you so much for listening today.

Tzuki Stewart:

If you enjoy this episode, please do rate and review as it really

Tzuki Stewart:

helps us to reach other listeners.

Tzuki Stewart:

We are releasing episodes every two weeks, so do hit subscribe

Tzuki Stewart:

to ensure that you don't miss out on more playful inspiration.

Tzuki Stewart:

Don't forget, you can find us@www.whyplayworks.com or

Tzuki Stewart:

wherever you get your podcasts.

Tzuki Stewart:

If you'd like to join our growing community of People United by the idea

Tzuki Stewart:

of play at work, you can sign up to the Playworks Collective on our homepage

Lucy Taylor:

If you have any ideas for future episodes, topics you'd love

Lucy Taylor:

to hear about, guest suggestions or questions about the work we do with

Lucy Taylor:

organizations, we'd love to hear from you.

Lucy Taylor:

Your feedback really matters to us, so please drop us a

Lucy Taylor:

line@hellowhyplayworks.com.

Lucy Taylor:

We'll be back in a fortnight with a brand new guest and we hope you'll join us.

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About the Podcast

Why Play Works.
Let's radically reshape work.
Do you have a niggling feeling, a secret hope, that work could be more joyful, more fun and (maybe) a little bit wilder? Do you sense deep down that doing great work doesn't need to be a slog?

In Why Play Works, Lucy Taylor and Tzuki Stewart hear the stories of people who are radically reshaping the idea of work as play - from play practitioners to academics to organisations who take play seriously.

How can working on serious problems be fun and delightful? Is play the opposite of work, or is it actually how we unlock success? How can reconnecting to our playfulness create more fulfilling and enlivening experiences of work?

We investigate how we can harness the power of play to boost resilience, improve well-being and foster collaboration, connection and creativity in the way we work.

About your hosts

Lucy Taylor

Profile picture for Lucy Taylor
Lucy is the founder of Make Work Play, an organisation on a mission to use the power of play to help organisations unfurl their potential. She is a passionate believer in the power of playful working as a way of bringing the best out in people, creating flow and unleashing creativity.

Lucy designs and leads playful processes which help teams unleash their individual and collective magic. Her approach to facilitation is immersive, playful and creative. Make Work ‘ Playshops’ are a space for you to get the hard work done together in a way that feels enlivening and fun.

Lucy has held positions as Visiting Faculty on MSc Programmes at Ashridge Business School and the Metanoia Institute. She studied PPE at Oxford and has trained in Systemic Coaching and Constellation Mapping, improvisational theatre and puppetry.

Tzuki Stewart

Profile picture for Tzuki Stewart
Tzuki is co-founder of Playfilled, which she brought to life in 2020 with Pauline McNulty to help forward-thinking businesses transform for high performance by filling their culture with purposeful play - the missing piece of the puzzle to increase creativity, collaboration, and continuous learning.

A culture consultancy at the intersection of new ways of working, organisational development and employee experience strategy, Playfilled supports leaders looking to rise to the challenge of changing expectations of work. They offer leadership talks, workshops and change programmes.

Tzuki previously worked in consulting and investment management, and completed an MBA from Warwick Business School in 2019 (timed to coincide with a newborn and toddler "because babies sleep a lot"... that turned out to be a bit of a fallacy!)