Play as the mother of invention
There are alternatives to PowerPoint, and to playing Devil’s Advocate. Filling a space with foosball tables and slides doesn’t inherently make a space “playful”. Joining Lucy to discuss how play forms the basis for so much of their creativity, are Brendan Boyle and Michelle Lee-Schmidt from global design form IDEO.
Brendan is the founder of the IDEO Play Lab, adjunct professor at Stanford, board member of the National Institute of Play and an award-winning author of the Klutz Book of Inventions. Michelle is Managing Director of IDEO's Play Lab, where she leads an integrated research design and development team, bringing engaging, interactive, and playful experiences to market.
Things to consider
- What some think of as flow or engagement is, in fact, play.
- Play can be a superpower that helps us take on the world.
- We don’t need to seek permission to play as much as we assume we might.
- There are other roles we can play in meetings, aside from Devil’s Advocate.
Links
Transcript
Hello, welcome to the show.
Speaker:My name's Lucy Taylor from Make Work Play,
Speaker:and I'm Tzuki Stewart from Playfilled together.
Speaker:We are why play works.
Speaker:The podcast that speaks to people, radically reshaping.
Speaker:The idea of work as play
Speaker:in this up.
Speaker:So I'll be speaking to Brendan Boyle and Michelle Lee from global
Speaker:design and innovation firm IO.
Speaker:Brendan Boyle is a partner ID and the founder of the IDO play lab.
Speaker:He's also adjunct professor at Stanford where he teaches a course at the D.
Speaker:Goal called from play to innovation, a board member of the national Institute
Speaker:of play and an award-winning author of the klutz book of inventions.
Speaker:Brenda believes that play is the key to innovation and frequently speaks
Speaker:to creative leaders, entrepreneurs, and students about the importance of
Speaker:playful, exploration, and risk taking.
Speaker:Under his leadership, the play lab has invented and licensed over 225 consumer
Speaker:products, including parents listening, wait for it, the best selling jumperoo
Speaker:Elmo, cools and game of the year.
Speaker:Pictionary air
Speaker:Michelle Lee is managing director of idea's play lab, where she leads an
Speaker:integrated research design and development team, bringing engaging, interactive
Speaker:and playful experiences to market.
Speaker:Her design for play team builds upon 30 plus years of toy invention.
Speaker:Leveraging the principles of play to connect with people at
Speaker:a deeper emotional level that captivates delights and empowers.
Speaker:Beyond specializing in toys and kids.
Speaker:Michelle is passionate about using play to address difficult challenges
Speaker:and create meaningful change across industries, including destigmatizing,
Speaker:mental health, inspiring underrepresented students to pursue careers in stem.
Speaker:And supporting organizations in adopting practices in line
Speaker:with the circular economy.
Speaker:In this episode, we explore sparkle zones, the power of spaces in inviting play
Speaker:and how we can do away with PowerPoint.
Speaker:Brendan.
Speaker:And Michelle, welcome to the show is so nice to have you here.
Speaker:How are you doing
Speaker:so excited to be here?
Speaker:Good, good, great to be here.
Speaker:Oh yeah.
Speaker:I mean, it's real honor to have you on I, when I read your BR your bio
Speaker:Brendan, I was like, oh my goodness.
Speaker:He invented the Jon Peru.
Speaker:And I had that sitting in my sitting room for a very long time.
Speaker:And it gave me a lot of moments of peace.
Speaker:So thank you.
Speaker:Well, you're welcome.
Speaker:So I'd love to begin by just starting with what your under, like, what
Speaker:does the word play mean to you?
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Uh, for me, play is really a state of mind.
Speaker:It's a spirit that I think really enables us to take on the world
Speaker:with curiosity and with agency.
Speaker:Um, I think a lot of people, when they talk about play, they
Speaker:go to fun and frivol, and while play can definitely be fun.
Speaker:We love when play is fun.
Speaker:Um, we think it's really far from frivolous.
Speaker:It's actually something that's so essential to our wellbeing.
Speaker:And as kids, we knew this it's how we just.
Speaker:Governed the world.
Speaker:It's how we engage with our surroundings.
Speaker:It's how we learn and how we grew.
Speaker:And yet, for some reason, adults don't always give themselves permission to play.
Speaker:Um, and we firmly believe that if we integrate more play into our lives, we can
Speaker:actually take on the world as we did as children with that same optimism and that.
Speaker:Same agency and that'll get us to better outcomes.
Speaker:I love that idea as play as this fuel that allows us to take on the world.
Speaker:It's like a superpower.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:We're talking about a lot of play in terms of superpower.
Speaker:yeah.
Speaker:That's so lovely.
Speaker:How about for you, Brendan?
Speaker:What does it mean to you?
Speaker:Well, I think Michelle nailed it.
Speaker:Um, it's definitely a mindset.
Speaker:And sometimes, well, I think I've written about it.
Speaker:I, I feel play has a PR problem.
Speaker:Like we need, we need more, a better PR person around it.
Speaker:And, um, we usually go into folks, either students or clients or collaborators
Speaker:and use the word engagement quite a bit.
Speaker:Cuz if you're not engagement, just sounds a little more, it's a easy
Speaker:way to sort of ease into play.
Speaker:Then we start saying, oh, you.
Speaker:Engagement's all about play and then they sort of get it,
Speaker:get it from that point of view.
Speaker:Um, I'm almost the last time you felt playful.
Speaker:Uh, well we took a trip to the beach this last weekend with my family.
Speaker:I have two children, one nine year old and one 11 year old.
Speaker:And there's just so much, I was playful about that experience.
Speaker:Cuz one, it was really windy.
Speaker:So we tried to play some version of.
Speaker:Badminton, but the wind would carry the, the bad mitten, um,
Speaker:birdie from place to place.
Speaker:And there's only so much you can control it.
Speaker:So you're just having fun, batting it, seeing where the, the wind takes you.
Speaker:Um, and I think that's great cuz it kinda lowers that, that fear of, um,
Speaker:trying to get everything perfect.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Um, I think Brendan and I, we used to teach a class together and we introduced
Speaker:chunky crayons because it's really hard to create fine art with a chunky crayons.
Speaker:Oh, that's so good.
Speaker:You'd be a little bit more free and to take chances.
Speaker:Pyramid.
Speaker:Um, I think the other thing about the beach trip that was really
Speaker:great was that my daughter, um, had heard that black sand is magnetic.
Speaker:So she filled two of my socks with sand and brought it home and then
Speaker:she used magnets to show how you could create like really cool magnetic
Speaker:forms as a sand form around the magnet or how the sand would jump.
Speaker:And it just teaches you what kids know so well, is that if you like
Speaker:really stop and pay attention to the world and engage with it deeply.
Speaker:It just, there's so much more, you can discover so much more, you
Speaker:can learn so much more you can do.
Speaker:And so I think that combination of things just made that beach
Speaker:trip incredibly playful for me.
Speaker:That sounds amazing.
Speaker:And that, and so hands on like completely immersed in what they're doing.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:We, we can't, we can't wait till she starts to intern
Speaker:here, so that'll be fantastic.
Speaker:Well, uh, for me, I'm, I'm actually in the ideal playlist,
Speaker:so it's hard not to feel playful.
Speaker:I see we're one team with two offers.
Speaker:One is around what Michelle, um, is focusing on design for play,
Speaker:which is more solving or consulting the, the other toy invention.
Speaker:Uh, so, but folks can work in both areas.
Speaker:So it's just, it's just magical to walk through where the toy vendors
Speaker:are tinkering on new, new inventions, and then hear about the other types
Speaker:of projects that we're working on.
Speaker:And the space itself is it's just full.
Speaker:Stuff.
Speaker:So tinkering things and models and, and yeah, it is, it is a
Speaker:delightful, um, tour stop and just a delightful place to get to come to.
Speaker:I mean, delightful is not a word you necessarily would associate with work.
Speaker:And it brings me so much joy to hear you describe it as delightful
Speaker:and like the words tinkering.
Speaker:It just sounds like a magical.
Speaker:A magical land, you know, idea is kind of renowned for having
Speaker:a creative and playful culture.
Speaker:And I'd love to understand a little bit about how that shows up day to day.
Speaker:Like, what does it look like?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It looks like, well, it looks two different ways when it's virtual.
Speaker:It's one way, which we've tried to make things exciting.
Speaker:And when it's in person, it's, it's different also, uh, the thing
Speaker:I've noticed about getting back in the office is it's that question?
Speaker:What are you working on?
Speaker:Which is one ideal loves, cuz then you hear about some new project
Speaker:or some new experiment someone's doing and then you get the spark,
Speaker:oh, I wanna work on that too.
Speaker:Or work, work with you.
Speaker:You don't get that question on a zoom because what you're working on is in the
Speaker:subject line so there's no reason to ask.
Speaker:So, but we, we have other inspiration channels on slack
Speaker:channels and things like that.
Speaker:That really get us excited.
Speaker:We have an inspiration channel.
Speaker:For toy invention for design, for play for just all sorts of things that
Speaker:will spark for us in design thinking, it starts with inspiration, which is
Speaker:a lot around, you know, role playing and other types of play for us.
Speaker:I think it's interesting that Brennan brings up like some of the things
Speaker:that we've learned and some of the different suits we've observed between
Speaker:being in person and being remote.
Speaker:Um, I think even just like this last couple years just
Speaker:showed how important play.
Speaker:That people are looking for more from their work than
Speaker:just doing the work itself.
Speaker:It really is about being around other people, being inspired by the
Speaker:workplace, seeing work in action.
Speaker:Um, and I think there's something about making that distinction
Speaker:between giving people the permission to play, which we think is really
Speaker:important versus forcing play.
Speaker:Um, like no one wants to be in that like forced, happy hour where you
Speaker:have to socialize with other people.
Speaker:If you don't feel like it in the moment, but.
Speaker:Really our team thinks about how do we set up the right
Speaker:condition so that people can play.
Speaker:And I think IDO does a really good job at that.
Speaker:And so, um, Brendan was mentioning how it's just like running into
Speaker:people and having those conversations.
Speaker:And we specifically set up our space for that.
Speaker:So we have places where people come together and have meals or when, um,
Speaker:Physical mail was more of a thing.
Speaker:We had all the mail slots in one place so that everyone from the CEO
Speaker:to the newest intern had a place where they had to run into each other.
Speaker:And where they'd ask those questions about what are you doing and be inspired from
Speaker:what they're hearing from each person?
Speaker:Um, I think also every time I walked into the IEO office was so inspiring because.
Speaker:It was less about the finish work, which is always great to see, but seeing work
Speaker:in progress and seeing people being really open with sharing, um, post-its on
Speaker:the walls and really early thinking and prototypes that aren't fully developed.
Speaker:And.
Speaker:How can we make that?
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I think too many places are all about the buttoned up PowerPoint.
Speaker:That's get shown at the end.
Speaker:Um, and there's something about the play, being a process and being
Speaker:okay with it, being messy and giving people the permission to take chances.
Speaker:Um, so we've tried to recreate that in virtual spaces too, with, um,
Speaker:just showcases for people's work.
Speaker:Um, but there really was something about like coming to a physical office and
Speaker:seeing post-its all over the ground.
Speaker:There's a lot of opportunity.
Speaker:In spaces that people don't don't really take advantage of.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I especially like to look at lobbies when I walk in, uh, sometimes it
Speaker:feels like you're at the TSA with security guards there and they're,
Speaker:you know, they're taking all this information, which is fine.
Speaker:You, you need some of that, but why not try to add some delight in the lobby, uh,
Speaker:where it's, where it's more of a ritual in my class this year, just as an experiment.
Speaker:First day of class, I taped down a hopscotch.
Speaker:I don't know what you call it, but plat pattern.
Speaker:And about half the students when they walked in were hopscotching and they,
Speaker:they, they had a low mindset shift and then we made that a project.
Speaker:So each, each class a student could sign up to do the ritual
Speaker:and change it, which was really, again, just mindset and ritual.
Speaker:Very playful in a different way.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:That kind of speaks to this idea of the, like the physicality, like
Speaker:the link between our bodies and our minds and how playfulness is
Speaker:so kind of connecting in that way.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Body play, mind, body play.
Speaker:We did a lot of it.
Speaker:As kids, as adults, we kind of don't but try to try to watch something
Speaker:exciting and, and fear team wins.
Speaker:Everyone raises their hands and joy.
Speaker:So try to have some more of that for other things.
Speaker:Yes, exactly.
Speaker:And delightful lobbies.
Speaker:Yes, please.
Speaker:I'd love to see more delightful lobbies having been going back into offices
Speaker:recently, I'm like, this is a bit scary.
Speaker:If anyone's out there from the DMV, Michelle and I really wanna
Speaker:do a design for play project to make that DMV more delightful.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:DMV.
Speaker:I hope you're listening.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I mean, I think in terms of space too, people get really intrigued and.
Speaker:When they take a tour of IDEO and they come into the play lab, first off, a
Speaker:lot of people don't realize that IDEO has a whole arm that works on toy
Speaker:invention, and that focuses on play.
Speaker:And when they come in, we literally have bins of goods against the
Speaker:walls that are there to help people, um, feel like they can prototype
Speaker:and make anything at any point.
Speaker:So it's everything from mechanical pieces.
Speaker:Springs and bellows that you can pull and make, um, some new prototype out of.
Speaker:It's also just like pieces of toys, uh, that are in all different shape
Speaker:that you can pull, you know, a head off of something or another component
Speaker:and create whatever you imagine.
Speaker:And I think that's, what's really interesting about play.
Speaker:It's one being able to imagine something that's really different
Speaker:and new, and then be able to start taking action to make it real.
Speaker:And so having a maker space that lets people do that is also really
Speaker:key to creating a playful environ.
Speaker:I mean when you're describing that my like cheeks are hurting
Speaker:a bit, I'm smiling so much.
Speaker:Like that just sounds fantastic.
Speaker:And I wanna come and play.
Speaker:Yeah, that's.
Speaker:That's mostly, we're talking about physical, but we do a lot of digital too.
Speaker:So we've done had a great partnership with Sesame street.
Speaker:And when we were mocking up for an app, how Elmo was supposed to dance, we are
Speaker:going back and forth there in New York.
Speaker:We're here.
Speaker:They're saying they're sending us assets and said, we'll program it.
Speaker:And we're thinking, oh, that's gonna take a couple weeks.
Speaker:But then the team had this great idea.
Speaker:We'll plot out a giant iPhone, cut it out.
Speaker:And then we'll have people dance in the, in the iPhone video tape it . And
Speaker:then we sent those back and forth two or three different dances in the morning.
Speaker:The Saddam will dance like that.
Speaker:Like this.
Speaker:And we could get feedback right away before we went to any type of program.
Speaker:So I love showing that example to students cuz they go, I,
Speaker:I can't prototyping digital.
Speaker:I, but yes, you can.
Speaker:You can show the story, which is the way play play could
Speaker:reduce that to being almost fun.
Speaker:It was fun to do.
Speaker:So you actually had physical people doing the dance.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And we had someone fake touch the button on the screen.
Speaker:Like here's the interaction design and, and people didn't even realize it
Speaker:till the end that the scale is all off.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But you get the idea don't you.
Speaker:And there's something, I mean, to come back to this word, which I feel like we've
Speaker:used so much already delightful about.
Speaker:The sound of that process.
Speaker:And so inviting.
Speaker:So in your view, like how do play and work relate to each other?
Speaker:And, um, Brendan, I know you run a course called from play to innovation.
Speaker:Like I'd love to just hear a little bit about how.
Speaker:The, the, the kind of journey from play to innovation.
Speaker:Well, it's kind of teach what you do.
Speaker:It's always a good way to sharpen, you know, sharpen your tools.
Speaker:But for, for us, just looking at IDEO, we know we're always kind
Speaker:of bringing in different types of work, new and interesting
Speaker:work, cuz that's what people are.
Speaker:You know, they find fascinating.
Speaker:We've done a lot of work with startups in, in new industries.
Speaker:We've got quite a bit in health and play place a lot in health.
Speaker:Michelle can talk more to that later, but we wanna bring in work that people want.
Speaker:So it's like, then they're interested in it.
Speaker:And then they get into that state of flow, which we can talk about.
Speaker:But if they're bringing in and their, the work is boring, they're
Speaker:gonna be like polishing up their LinkedIn and go somewhere else.
Speaker:So we we're constantly trying to bring in work.
Speaker:That's exciting.
Speaker:I'm trying to teach this whole concept of design for play to students.
Speaker:If they look bored, I don't blame them for being a apathetic students.
Speaker:I have to like, figure out I'm not engaging enough,
Speaker:this lesson isn't working.
Speaker:So, so it's up to the teachers.
Speaker:It's not the students.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I'm in such strong agreement.
Speaker:That's about finding work that you're really passionate about.
Speaker:And I've had a couple really great conversations with the designers recently
Speaker:where they said I had so much fun on this project that didn't even feel like.
Speaker:And that's what we're going for.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And like, how amazing is that if like work and play can be one and the same and you
Speaker:can't even distinguish between the two.
Speaker:Um, and one of my designers, I had a chance to work with for many
Speaker:years, Jenny Gotti, she introduced our team to the term sparkle zones.
Speaker:And this is that overlap where you're taking what you're
Speaker:really passionate about.
Speaker:What you're good at and what the world needs and finding
Speaker:that overlap in the center.
Speaker:And if you can really find that that's where you kind of really find purpose
Speaker:and get excited about what you're doing.
Speaker:And so our team has really mapped out where do people want to play?
Speaker:And that's been looking at.
Speaker:You know, how can we contribute to conversations around inclusion,
Speaker:around climate education, aging, community design.
Speaker:Those are just some of the areas that we're especially passionate about.
Speaker:Um, and then of course we have all these special skill sets in
Speaker:play that we wanna apply directly to that to bring a new person.
Speaker:Effective and viewpoint.
Speaker:And then if the world needs it and clients are asking for it, that's the
Speaker:icing on the cake that we can bring all those three elements together.
Speaker:And so this is where we're curious, where we're really driven to dive in
Speaker:and where we can do our best work.
Speaker:And that I think is when we enter that state of flow that Brendan was talking
Speaker:about and we, where we truly are projects.
Speaker:But I mean, we're blessed because we, we.
Speaker:Get to do what we love.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So when I explain to folks who say, well, I don't really like it.
Speaker:Um, I remember I was a janitor in high school and college and I, we
Speaker:had kind of an enlightened leader.
Speaker:He, he said, you're gonna get paid five hours.
Speaker:You can do your job as fast as you can, but the quality has to be there.
Speaker:So it became kind of almost a game, like how to learn to do
Speaker:stuff more efficiently and better.
Speaker:You know, it sort of had a good time at it.
Speaker:So I've never looked back at those as sort of drudgery work
Speaker:because cuz of the leadership.
Speaker:So thinking about how, how the leadership can bring in more, more
Speaker:sort effect of design for play.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:That's really interesting.
Speaker:There's two really interesting things there.
Speaker:I think one, the role that leaders play in modeling and giving permission
Speaker:and also this idea of like, you know, it sounds like you design your
Speaker:teams quite differently, you know, uh, designing around this idea.
Speaker:What are people passionate about and interested in just feels like a
Speaker:completely different starting point.
Speaker:And so, um, enlivening.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Um, I mean, I really love hiring unicorns into my team.
Speaker:I want people who, um, of course have done their research and kind of know
Speaker:what we do and the kind of work that we.
Speaker:Accomplished and to be aligned with that, but I also want
Speaker:them to bring something new.
Speaker:And so I'm always trying to tap into like, what is unique about this person.
Speaker:And I think if you look at our team, you can see that we have
Speaker:really talented interaction designs, design researchers, um, engineers.
Speaker:But we also, if you look at what else they do, we have a magician.
Speaker:We have an.
Speaker:Opera singer.
Speaker:We have people who do improv in their past, um, or still do improv now.
Speaker:And I think each of those lenses makes them really unique in
Speaker:how they tackle challenges.
Speaker:And so when I'm hiring, I'm looking for that, like literally like the sparkle of
Speaker:each of them that we can bring to those sparkle zones, um, in a unique way to
Speaker:tackle challenges, uh, from a viewpoint that maybe hasn't been used before.
Speaker:That's so exciting.
Speaker:Can you tell me how you used?
Speaker:How does the opera singer like feed this?
Speaker:I'd love to know what does that look like?
Speaker:Oh my gosh.
Speaker:Um, so when, uh, Wendy.
Speaker:Interviewed.
Speaker:I was really intrigued by how she looked at research.
Speaker:And she said as an opera singer, I'm a performer.
Speaker:And each time I step on stage, it's this magical moment where I can
Speaker:transport myself to another place.
Speaker:Another time think outside of my current reality and imagine something different.
Speaker:So as a design researcher, how do I enable that for the people that we.
Speaker:Designing for when I bring people into research and they're participating in
Speaker:that, how do I give them the tools to challenge the way that we see reality
Speaker:to help us step into new areas?
Speaker:So it'll enable them and enable our clients to step into new situations,
Speaker:to imagine something different.
Speaker:And she's been really effective to bring role play to our work.
Speaker:So even when we're touching on really deep strategy, There might be moments
Speaker:that people don't know how to engage their stakeholders or their clientele.
Speaker:And they might see their customers only as a source of revenue.
Speaker:And so she's used role play to be like, Hey, let's actually like
Speaker:create this experience and we're gonna bring in your stakeholders.
Speaker:We're gonna bring in your clientele and you're gonna
Speaker:engage with them in a new way.
Speaker:And it's that moment that you see the light bulb go off
Speaker:and the client comes back.
Speaker:You're like, wow.
Speaker:We have not tapped in the potential that's there and you helped us see
Speaker:it and that's gonna change the whole way we move forward and how we relate
Speaker:to the people in our ecosystem.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Wow.
Speaker:That's so exciting.
Speaker:And like, so, um, visceral, I imagine that experiences compared to like,
Speaker:just list sitting and listening to somebody, present some research.
Speaker:I love the, I love the performer, um, comment, cuz in my class I have the
Speaker:students present their presentations.
Speaker:Using a skit.
Speaker:They have to, they have to write it out because I've seen so many
Speaker:presentations where the students nuance the slide deck forever.
Speaker:Once the all four are standing once talking, this happens
Speaker:in corporate world two.
Speaker:So if they do a skit, I, the.
Speaker:The worst get is more engaging than the best slide deck and, um,
Speaker:I give them extra credit if they do a skit in a different class.
Speaker:And I, and I say, if the professor doesn't like it, I will personally
Speaker:go talk to the professor.
Speaker:I've never had to talk to a professor, but I've had dozens of students come to me
Speaker:and say, we killed it in the other class.
Speaker:Because every other presentation was boring.
Speaker:That is so great.
Speaker:So are they doing like skits in math class and stuff?
Speaker:Well, I don't
Speaker:know.
Speaker:No, they've done it in business class, in an education class, but wherever,
Speaker:wherever there would be a team project where they'd have opportunity to do it.
Speaker:So I don't know too many team projects in math.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's like you're sending little play agents, secret play agents.
Speaker:We're trying to make as many play agents.
Speaker:And I'd say it's joyful, but we also really look at play as being purposeful.
Speaker:So one of the reasons that when we run workshops and we have people
Speaker:present their prototypes as skits is one it's more engaging for both
Speaker:the person putting on the, uh, presentation as well as the audience.
Speaker:But it also.
Speaker:Moves people away from thinking about what they're delivering as just a
Speaker:product or service, where they're focusing on features and actually
Speaker:having them think about what's the engagement of how your product or
Speaker:service is gonna impact the world.
Speaker:How is it gonna interact with real people?
Speaker:What is the context that your product will be behaving in
Speaker:and how will it actually create transformations within that audience?
Speaker:How will it get them to change emotionally?
Speaker:Um, so that's why it's really important.
Speaker:So beyond being fun, it really serves a real purpose.
Speaker:So it sounds like.
Speaker:So much variety in the types of play that you use.
Speaker:So you've got role play, you've got skits, you've got makers making.
Speaker:Can you tell us about some of the other, like types of play that you use?
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:For ideation, one of my favorite topics is exploratory play and, and, you
Speaker:know, brainstorm is really exploring or go out and just play around with us.
Speaker:How many times we've heard that in the corporate world, but yes, we're
Speaker:exploring out, out in the field for sure.
Speaker:And then.
Speaker:Implementation or prototyping it's constructive play and that
Speaker:can be physical or digital.
Speaker:So we learn about all these play behaviors by inventing toys.
Speaker:So we're constantly focused on them and they're not just for kids.
Speaker:These play behaviors go on and on in the corporate world.
Speaker:This is from Tom Kelly's book, art of innovation.
Speaker:Um, everyone roles plays at the office, but they only role played one.
Speaker:Character who usually stands up in a room or speaks up in a room
Speaker:when the meeting's going fantastic.
Speaker:And everyone's looking great.
Speaker:And that person says, let me play.
Speaker:What Lucy, what role do they wanna play?
Speaker:Uh, devil's advocate.
Speaker:Devil's advocate.
Speaker:Why is that the only role?
Speaker:Why isn't there play creator or play agent role or, you know?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:That is such a great provocation.
Speaker:Like what role could you play apart from devil's advocate?
Speaker:I'm gonna totally steal that in my next meeting when someone's like yeah, but
Speaker:Yeah, they'd go.
Speaker:Play agent here and let's put this devil's advocate in the corner.
Speaker:So, and I think one word Advils is social play, cuz I think that's, what's
Speaker:really exciting too, is when you can bring other people in and really build
Speaker:off of each other and generate that excitement get inspired by others.
Speaker:Um, so yeah, I think a lot of play can oftentimes be a team sport too.
Speaker:Something we like to, to build off of and, and really bring into the work we do.
Speaker:So, you know, you both have a wealth of experience in designing
Speaker:toys, and I know that you are taking some of those learnings and
Speaker:applying them in different contexts.
Speaker:So kind of serious in inverted commerce, adult contexts.
Speaker:I'd love to hear some stories of where you've applied, the
Speaker:things that you've learnt.
Speaker:Um, Designing toys, um, in other, in other places.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Um, well, we're really excited to bring, play to complex challenges.
Speaker:And I think this goes back to again, watching kids because a lot of
Speaker:times people talk about child's play and people assume that means that
Speaker:it's something that's really easy.
Speaker:But kids actually use play to tackle complex issues themselves.
Speaker:Um, they're using it to figure out how to interact with other
Speaker:people, how to navigate the world, how to push boundaries.
Speaker:And so similarly it's well suited for all of the issues that we're facing today.
Speaker:Um, one of the areas that our team again is really passionate
Speaker:about is sustainability.
Speaker:And how do we talk about climate?
Speaker:Um, Generally people talk about climate.
Speaker:It's really easy to get depressed very quickly.
Speaker:And I think you can only get so far with, um, telling people the world is burning.
Speaker:You'll get their attention, but, um, it's really hard to design
Speaker:and make a difference when you're in a state of depression.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:How can a playful mindset come in and really bring that
Speaker:sense of hope and optimism.
Speaker:Like not downplaying the seriousness of it, cuz that's not what we wanna
Speaker:do at all, but it really is about figuring out how do we bring people in,
Speaker:in a way that they can get passionate about the topic to feel like they're
Speaker:actually empowered to make a difference.
Speaker:And, um, I think that's why play is so important for challenges like
Speaker:this, like fighting climate change because fear really isn't sustainable.
Speaker:And so if we wanna create that sustained attention and the behavior change,
Speaker:we need to have that playful mindset that appeals to people emotionally.
Speaker:Um, cuz it's not enough to just even like hope or anticipate what that
Speaker:playfulness, um, might be and how it might come into play for these challenges.
Speaker:But again, it's about how do you take action?
Speaker:How do we, um, actually do something to take steps towards it?
Speaker:If we're so focused on perfection, that can be really paralyzing.
Speaker:Um, but we wanna actually have people take.
Speaker:Take that first step and then build off of that first step and more than
Speaker:anything, they need to look at this as something that they want to do, not
Speaker:just something that they need to do.
Speaker:I, and it kind of comes back to what we said at the beginning about play as like
Speaker:this fuel in order to change the world.
Speaker:Um, I know you've been working on some very serious issues, like you've
Speaker:just mentioned sustainability and climate change and mental health.
Speaker:I know is one of them.
Speaker:Um, do you think there's anything.
Speaker:That is kind of too serious to be played with?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Um, I mean, I.
Speaker:Looking at that question.
Speaker:One of the biggest pieces is to recognize that play is many different forms.
Speaker:And so, um, I think where people kind of shy away from the idea of play being
Speaker:in certain situations is when they're just thinking about the boisterous
Speaker:laughter and, um, the most, uh, outward form of play that we might think of.
Speaker:But again, if play is more of a mindset and that really, um, The thinking of
Speaker:coming to something with an open mind and the ability to imagine different
Speaker:possibilities and to feel like you can do something about that possibility then.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I think play can be applied to any situation.
Speaker:Um, But you do have to read the room.
Speaker:Uh, we integrate play with a very human-centered way of approaching design.
Speaker:So know who that audience is, understand that play can be very celebratory, but
Speaker:it can also just be a way to reflect and experiment and to try things.
Speaker:It doesn't have to be loud.
Speaker:It doesn't have to necessarily include a lot of laughter.
Speaker:Um, and sometimes you do have to take that moment.
Speaker:Like if it's a really.
Speaker:Hard situation that people are trying to get through.
Speaker:You might need to take a moment for, um, people to grieve or to have a moment
Speaker:to reflect and think, but that playful spirit will allow you to continue to
Speaker:be optimistic that there is a future beyond that and give you the opportunity
Speaker:to pull yourself outta that grief.
Speaker:And then again, to take action and make the situation better.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Agreed Michelle.
Speaker:I, I always feel a play in good spirited humor, or like good
Speaker:friends that like to hang out.
Speaker:So even thinking of a funeral or something, it's that first
Speaker:someone who gets up and says something funny about the person.
Speaker:And you could just tell the whole broom is relieved.
Speaker:And now, now there's a sense of joy in remembering this person versus the
Speaker:grief and they've sort of balanced.
Speaker:Definitely reading the room and understanding different types of play.
Speaker:And it's interesting cuz that that ability like play is very present.
Speaker:I think like a playful state is very present and actually I think if you
Speaker:are in that space, it allows you to be very attentive to what is whether
Speaker:that's like as you describe Michelle, a need for grief or the need for the
Speaker:light relief in a very heavy situation.
Speaker:So it's, I think it's really interesting how.
Speaker:Two things work together.
Speaker:Um, so I feel like there's a lot of preconceptions around play,
Speaker:particularly in organizations.
Speaker:I wondered kind of if you've come up against resistance and
Speaker:kind of how you navigate that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:We'll walk into a company and they'd say we're very playful.
Speaker:Look at the foosball table or look at the bean bags or look at the slide
Speaker:and I go, those, those are great.
Speaker:Those are breaks.
Speaker:I have no problem with the break, but that's not what we mean by play.
Speaker:And then we have to sort of educate them about engagement.
Speaker:The things we've just been talking about for a while.
Speaker:Everyone thought Google's secret to success was cuz they had
Speaker:a big slide in their office.
Speaker:So we started seeing all these slides off these companies it was like good
Speaker:for the slide business, but I, it was not good for the, the play business.
Speaker:It's good for taking breaks.
Speaker:Yeah, that's really interesting.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And I think that put that, I mean, that probably feeds into some misconceptions,
Speaker:you know, it's just been bags and slides.
Speaker:Um, when I first started talking about play and how we could bring
Speaker:it to our consulting business, I was met with a lot of blank stares.
Speaker:I think a lot of times people would be like, well, we're not making toys
Speaker:and we're not working with kids.
Speaker:So why are you here?
Speaker:Um, and I think over time, um, I found different ways to articulate it.
Speaker:It's been the team coming together and working through
Speaker:like, how do we talk about play?
Speaker:And it really is.
Speaker:I think one of the, the strongest ways I can get people to connect with
Speaker:play is to have them reflect back on their childhoods and to remember
Speaker:what play really meant for them.
Speaker:Cuz we all started out playing.
Speaker:We all knew the value of play and we know that as a child.
Speaker:Play is what enabled us to get to where we are today.
Speaker:It was really how we, um, were able to challenge what we saw in
Speaker:the world and to really develop as human beings and find our voice.
Speaker:And so I think when we can remember to the power that it had for us as children, I.
Speaker:Then we might start to question, well, why did we stop playing?
Speaker:Like, we still need all of those elements of building resilience, resilience of
Speaker:being able to work with other people of, um, finding new solutions and to
Speaker:bringing joy to the work that we do.
Speaker:And so I think when they can connect back to the value that
Speaker:had in their early years, then.
Speaker:It becomes almost no brainer.
Speaker:Well, of course it should be part of this challenge that we're tackling today.
Speaker:Working.
Speaker:I love working with the C-suite, especially around building a
Speaker:culture of innovation through play.
Speaker:So have to start from the top and I'll sit these execs in a circle and
Speaker:we'll make some kind of prototype out of foam core and rubber bands.
Speaker:And there got scissors and, and.
Speaker:They're totally resistant at first, but I have a few titles that they
Speaker:might think I'm credible and then they start doing some stuff and
Speaker:they're working with their hands.
Speaker:They're thinking with their hands, which is an expression we love.
Speaker:And they're doing what I call high fidelity thinking,
Speaker:low fidelity prototyping.
Speaker:And that's what I'm trying to coach them up on their organization.
Speaker:You'll have more ideas.
Speaker:You'll have more quick failures that will lead to bigger successes.
Speaker:So that's, that's something where I really.
Speaker:Our design for play offer can, can really help organizations.
Speaker:I, I also think that our job is getting easier as we have more examples to show.
Speaker:So Lucy, you mentioned some of the areas that we've tackled, but being
Speaker:able to talk about how we've taken on smoking cessation, um, challenges
Speaker:where people will try to quit smoking, but give up after they pick up one
Speaker:cigarette and the lessons we've be able to bring from game design.
Speaker:Um, particularly looking at things like, um, rogue, like games where people die
Speaker:repeatedly, but still keep playing.
Speaker:Um, so that when they actually win the success is so much greater.
Speaker:What is it that we can learn from that, that we can bring to this
Speaker:other industry, um, or how we've gotten kids really excited to take
Speaker:on stem careers by letting them role play as scientists and engineers.
Speaker:So over time, we've just had more and more examples to share.
Speaker:And so that's making it even easier to talk about playing,
Speaker:get people, to understand how we can bring it to their challenge.
Speaker:I've just got this image of your C-suite exec sprint and like sitting
Speaker:down with their like tongue sticking out, like as they're making,
Speaker:I made him sit on the floor too, because that's what kids would do.
Speaker:So that was, that was perfect.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Amazing.
Speaker:And kids do it with their whole bodies.
Speaker:I just have, I remember watching this kid in a meeting, like
Speaker:coloring in and he wasn't just like coloring in with his hand.
Speaker:He was like, it was a whole body experience.
Speaker:I love, yeah.
Speaker:We call that rough and tumble play.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:Lots of times folks will think kids are fighting.
Speaker:They're not, they're just like two Cubs wrestling and that's a tougher,
Speaker:tougher behavior to explain sometimes
Speaker:Yes, but a very needed behavior.
Speaker:. So in terms of like creating the conditions for play, you
Speaker:know, you've talked about how helpful it is to have examples.
Speaker:Um, what do you think needs to be in place for playfulness to flourish.
Speaker:Definitely.
Speaker:You need enlightened leadership or you need an experiment
Speaker:happening in the corner.
Speaker:That's got some air cover from leadership, and then everyone wants
Speaker:to know what's going on over there.
Speaker:How come they're behaving differently?
Speaker:They're they seem to like really enjoy what they're doing and, and
Speaker:creating lots of little experiments.
Speaker:So I think two, two of those ways can, can happen or both at the same time.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:There's um, three key elements that I think are really needed for someone
Speaker:to be able to truly play first.
Speaker:I think there needs to be an element of psychological safety.
Speaker:So how do people really feel comfortable being themselves and
Speaker:feel comfortable taking risks?
Speaker:Um, I think again, like going back to the example, walking to the IEO
Speaker:office, It's that seeing people just taking chances and roughing things
Speaker:out on post-its and being okay with, uh, prototypes that are only partway
Speaker:done that they're still working out.
Speaker:So, um, that safety to be able to do that, to, to take chances, um,
Speaker:I think there's also that sense of agency that's really important.
Speaker:So how do you feel like you can actually create change that you
Speaker:can affect the world around.
Speaker:And make a difference.
Speaker:And again, um, I mean, IDEO, we're seeing that constantly to see what comes outta
Speaker:the different projects and how we're touching so many different industries.
Speaker:So there's something really great about that and knowing that you
Speaker:can dive in and, and do something yourself about what's around you.
Speaker:Um, and then I think sense of joy, right?
Speaker:Like when we talk about.
Speaker:Play.
Speaker:Um, I think one mistake I've made in trying to make it a little bit more,
Speaker:almost like mainstream and get more businesses taken on is, um, that sometimes
Speaker:I use too much of a business speak to be like, see, it really applies to you.
Speaker:And then constantly like, oh, but let's not forget that play
Speaker:is really good at instilling joy.
Speaker:And so how do we maintain that sense of joy?
Speaker:That sense of wonder, um, that really is that intrinsic motivation
Speaker:to get someone parti, excited, to continue participating in whatever
Speaker:experiences that you're creating.
Speaker:Yeah, I, I can totally relate to that when you get a bit serious and then you're
Speaker:like, I'm not enjoying this and having to like check yourself and get into a joyful
Speaker:space to be able to model it for others.
Speaker:Um, I'd love to hear what your biggest surprises have been.
Speaker:I'm able to teach.
Speaker:I'm able to teach a class on it.
Speaker:I, you know, we invent toys.
Speaker:I'm still amazed when we licensed the toy.
Speaker:The fact that you complimented me on the jumperoo, which just sort of made
Speaker:my day, that was, you know, that had so many failures before it got to success.
Speaker:Um, and it's still selling, which is delightful.
Speaker:So yes, you know, but I'm most excited.
Speaker:About the things we're working on now.
Speaker:I mean, that's what keeps me coming in into the office, all the sort
Speaker:of interesting things that we're working on or things that new
Speaker:things that I wanna experiment with.
Speaker:So super excited what Michelle's doing in her area.
Speaker:It's just, just, you know, I think will really have a big change
Speaker:on the firm making us, uh, more competitive and different than all
Speaker:those other folks in innovation.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:It's all those things.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I, I mean really related to that, I think I've been very pleasantly surprised by
Speaker:how people's viewpoints on play have changed over the last couple years.
Speaker:I mean, as I mentioned, it was really hard when I first started talking about play
Speaker:and how we bring it to complex challenges and to other industries beyond toys and
Speaker:kids, um, But I don't know, it might be partially the pandemic or greater
Speaker:realization that we need more play and joy in our lives, but it it's always really
Speaker:affirming and great when I can walk into a room now and I start talking about play
Speaker:and start to explain why I'm there and.
Speaker:And I met with nods and smiles and people's own personal stories.
Speaker:Like one of the best stories I have is when I was going in to talk
Speaker:to a R P, which is the American association of retired persons.
Speaker:Um, so they work with aging adults typically over the age of 50.
Speaker:And I started talking about play and how it really applies to people of all
Speaker:ages and that when we even designed for aging, oftentimes it's about
Speaker:designed for safety, cuz we're looking at from the caregiver's point of view.
Speaker:But if you look at the person that you're actually designing for, um, joy.
Speaker:Such a key part and play continues to be essential.
Speaker:And so, um, one of the people on the client side said,
Speaker:oh, I wholeheartedly agreed.
Speaker:And she told me a story about her aging mother and being a very dignified
Speaker:lady, had a really hard time, um, transitioning to using a bedpan.
Speaker:And that was a huge challenge until they realized that she was
Speaker:a dancer when she was younger.
Speaker:And so they started turning on music.
Speaker:And they would Walter to the bathroom every time she needed to use the bathroom.
Speaker:And that was just such a powerful story about that mindset and play and how it can
Speaker:completely transform an everyday function into something that's joyful and makes it
Speaker:easier, um, for someone to participate.
Speaker:So that's one,
Speaker:it reminded me when I first started working.
Speaker:My tough boss would come in and say, I only slept four hours last night.
Speaker:I I'm, you know, if I came in and, and said that to my team, they'd say,
Speaker:don't, you know, anything about, um, sleep hygiene or, you know, cuz there's
Speaker:been so much study in science to sleep.
Speaker:How important is?
Speaker:So there is study, there are doctors and professors studying the
Speaker:science of play, how it's intrinsic.
Speaker:And if you don't have it, things are not as happy in your life and
Speaker:it can lead to mental health issues.
Speaker:So, um, I hope.
Speaker:Eventually play will be like that.
Speaker:People will understand.
Speaker:Oh yes.
Speaker:It's as important to sleep.
Speaker:Wait, so I'd love it.
Speaker:If you have up your sleeves, which I suspect you do, um, a playful practice,
Speaker:which you might be willing to share with our listener, um, something that they
Speaker:could kind of take and use in their way.
Speaker:I,
Speaker:I can start, I think for me it's motion.
Speaker:So, um, this mind body connection, I always explain it to students,
Speaker:untie your shoes and see if your brain can tie your shoes.
Speaker:They just can't so you need to move, I think, to move.
Speaker:So I, for me, it's, I it's running, it's slow running now, but I encourage
Speaker:folks do something you, like I ask 'em about their hobbies and it could be, it
Speaker:could be walking or biking or something.
Speaker:That's moving, going to the beach and running after a.
Speaker:Badminton thing, but it's that movement every day that I think is
Speaker:really necessary to sort of reset.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And how accessible, you know, we can do that so easily.
Speaker:Can't we, if we just allot a little bit of time.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Um, so long time ago, my mom, uh, gave me the advice to remember, to
Speaker:always take the time to stop and smell the flowers, smell the roses.
Speaker:Uh, I think so many of us are so focused on the, what needs come next and what do
Speaker:we need to accomplish from here to there?
Speaker:And there's so much to just taking a pause in your day and to really
Speaker:take in your surroundings and to observe what is new and special.
Speaker:And, um, to almost see it through the same eyes that kids see it in.
Speaker:There's so many things that we become jaded to that we just stop observing
Speaker:that can bring us joy in our day to day.
Speaker:And so.
Speaker:Take a walk as a child, even better take a child with you.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:um, and just see what catches their attention and, um, what becomes a game?
Speaker:Uh, I mean, it's just incredible, like even just at the beach, that beach story.
Speaker:So many people were on that beach, no one paid attention to the sand.
Speaker:My daughter's the one who like brought it back and they like turned
Speaker:it into a toy and an Amer for hours.
Speaker:Um, and that's incredible.
Speaker:We're surrounded by things like grains of sand all the time, but how many of us
Speaker:actually see the play value in it and, um, kind of push ourselves to be creative in
Speaker:interacting with our world in new ways.
Speaker:Um, well, thank you both so much.
Speaker:It has been a real pleasure and delight, um, to talk to you.
Speaker:We would talk about this all day.
Speaker:So I was back sometime.
Speaker:This was fantastic.
Speaker:Your questions were wonderful so.
Speaker:Our pleasure.
Speaker:Thanks so much, Lucy really appreciate being on here and
Speaker:being able to talk about play.
Speaker:One thing that jumped out was this idea of sometimes needing a bit of a Trojan
Speaker:horse to get play into the conversation.
Speaker:I think it was Brendan talking about.
Speaker:We can talk about it in terms of engagement, uh, because people are
Speaker:really plugged into this idea of how can we drive engagement and really
Speaker:what we're talking about is play.
Speaker:But it, I, I get that a lot in our homework again, it's kind of people
Speaker:say, I love what you're talking about, but just talk, just call it flow.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:We'll just call it engagement and creativity.
Speaker:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker:And, you know, I kind of, it resonates that we do need that
Speaker:tradition horse sometimes.
Speaker:Um, but also I'm a bit like, no, let's just be brave and use the word.
Speaker:Yeah, I totally agree.
Speaker:Um, I really like the idea of play as this superpower, um, that kind of gives
Speaker:us fuel and allows us to take on the world when they were talking about some of
Speaker:the really tough challenges they work on and how you can't, you know, it's really
Speaker:hard to ideate if you are in a depressed, hopeless state and play being this.
Speaker:Optimistic fuel that helps us keep going.
Speaker:Uh, other things that came out to me was the jumped out at me was, uh,
Speaker:around presenting ideas through skit.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And , I just, I love this so much, especially, um, I think the
Speaker:really interesting nugget was how Brendan had said, you know, go
Speaker:and do it in your other classes.
Speaker:And if the professor has an issue.
Speaker:They can come to me and I'll, you know, explain the rationale
Speaker:and apologize for you if need be.
Speaker:And he's never had to talk to the other professor.
Speaker:And I thought that was, that was so revealing that we kind of, we
Speaker:wait for the permission, we needed permission and there's still fear.
Speaker:And to boo around doing this and nervousness around it.
Speaker:And yet he's never had.
Speaker:To, to kind of row back from that, because it typically has always landed
Speaker:so, so differently, and so well.
Speaker:I thought it was lovely how.
Speaker:Coming back to their office, which sounded amazing.
Speaker:I was like, this just sounds like the perfect workspace.
Speaker:Um, being able to ask people what they're working on and seeing the messiness of
Speaker:the process and play being exactly that a process that is not straightforward
Speaker:or in straight lines and how you.
Speaker:Being invited into people's processes, kind of creates room for serendipity and
Speaker:connection and different ideas to come in.
Speaker:I thought that was really interesting.
Speaker:Completely agree.
Speaker:I love that idea of showing the mess, showing the working,
Speaker:showing the, where it's not worked out and the failures and that.
Speaker:And that does sound like a really playful environment.
Speaker:And I love the, um, the whole, Hey, big slides.
Speaker:, that's the only way you can create a playful environment.
Speaker:And that's, that is often, you know, again, where, where minds jump to is
Speaker:all bull pits and tennis table, tennis table, table tennis, and big slides.
Speaker:And, and actually it doesn't need all that.
Speaker:It just needs this kind of open embrace of, of the process of the messiness.
Speaker:And as you say, creating opportunities for, for serendipitous
Speaker:connections around that.
Speaker:So I, I love their take.
Speaker:What is a playful environment and how can you create one?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:The idea of like bins full of loose bits and prototypes
Speaker:ever, and delightful lobbies.
Speaker:Yes, please.
Speaker:I love the question that Michelle posed about what is unique about this person.
Speaker:I just thought that is so refreshing.
Speaker:What if we look beyond CB and role specs and job descriptions, and you know,
Speaker:obviously the work needs to be done and you need certain requisite skills.
Speaker:There's something unique about everyone everyone's coming with a story.
Speaker:Everyone's got quirks, everyone's got passions that just are
Speaker:never invited out of us.
Speaker:There's never a mandate or a platform given.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And, and how she described it as sparkle zones.
Speaker:It's like, yay.
Speaker:It's beautiful.
Speaker:How could we map our team out based on sparkle zones?
Speaker:Um, I loved Brendan's.
Speaker:Provocation to play a different role apart from devil's advocate, like
Speaker:what are the other roles we can play?
Speaker:Um, I just think that's a really great question to think about
Speaker:and whatever meeting we are in.
Speaker:You know, what role am I playing today?
Speaker:What hat am I gonna put on?
Speaker:I think the last thing I, I would probably raise was around the importance and the
Speaker:value in physical movement using hands and how it's really difficult to kind
Speaker:of reset or reframe just by thinking.
Speaker:And I think that's so true and get really in my head and to, to just, yeah, to,
Speaker:to reset, to reframe, we do need to.
Speaker:Physically kind of move our bodies, use our hands think with our hands.
Speaker:That was a lovely reminder.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And that image of that elderly woman being danced to the bathroom.
Speaker:Oh, brought a tear to my eye.
Speaker:Thank you so much for listening today.
Speaker:If you enjoyed this episode, please do rate in review.
Speaker:As it really helps us to reach other listeners.
Speaker:We're releasing episodes every two weeks.
Speaker:So do hit subscribe to ensure.
Speaker:Don't miss out on more playful, inspiration.
Speaker:Don't forget, you can find us@wwwdotwhyplayworks.com or
Speaker:wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker:And if you'd like to join our growing community of people United, by the idea
Speaker:of play at work, you can sign up to the Playworks collective on the homepage.
Speaker:If you have any ideas for future episodes topics, you'd like to
Speaker:hear about guest suggestions.
Speaker:All questions about the work we do with organizations, we
Speaker:would love to hear from you.
Speaker:Your feedback really matters to us.
Speaker:So please drop us a line at hello@whyplayworks.com.
Speaker:We'll be back in a fortnight with a brand new guest, and
